Episode 9:

Tracy Herbert

Transcript

Toban Dyck  00:02

This is the extensionist conversations with great thinkers in agriculture. I’m Toban Dyck

Jay Whetter  00:07

and I’m Jay wetter. Toban, you were, you have been putting your panel moderating skills to work.

Toban Dyck  00:17

I have, I have, indeed, I was at grow Canada. Hashtag grow Canada. 24 in Ottawa

Jay Whetter  00:25

this year. Who goes to grow Canada?

Toban Dyck  00:29

I didn’t. I don’t have the full list. I don’t. I’m not gonna be a whole 300 people. Okay, we’re gonna alphabetically. Yeah, yeah. Okay, okay, great.

Jay Whetter  00:41

You drop the toothpicks and you can count 257,

Toban Dyck  00:45

toothpicks. I’m not like an event attendee. Savant, yeah, lots of people, so lot of industry folks and regulators, like a lot of government, government. People go to the go to the conference.

Jay Whetter  01:03

The host organization is crop life.

Toban Dyck  01:06

Crop life, yeah, crop life, yeah, no, great, great, great. If it’s a it’s a slick it’s a slick event. I

Jay Whetter  01:12

saw the pictures you look pretty sharp up there on stage, and it was a nice looking stage, like glass podium and nice chairs and good lighting. Yeah. So what was the panel? Are you going to tell about the panel? I

Toban Dyck  01:24

may talk a little bit about the panel. So there are two panels. One was on artificial intelligence, and the other one was on gene editing, two topics I’m obviously an expert in, yes,

Jay Whetter  01:36

well, I know you’re an expert in artificial intelligence, the gene editing. I didn’t know this about you. That’s right,

Toban Dyck  01:43

I never, I’ve never mentioned that I have a PhD in gene editing, plant breeding and genes and I don’t know what else you’d get a PhD in that’s related to gene editing, but I haven’t. So two panels, I was up on the stage from 10am to noon. Nice. So what I want to say about it, though, was is rather on the flight over, I’m watching an old movie. And no, not an old movie, old to some people, but it’s black and white. It’s a black and white film, George Clooney, Robert Downey, Jr, whole bunch of people, good night and good luck. It’s about the journalist Edward R Moreau in McCarthy Era. Kind of communist witch hunt America, right? So, great. Interesting. Interesting, you know, topic. Anyways, there’s one scene where Edward R Moreau is is chatting with CBS News, and he’s frustrated because he’s being censored. He’s being told that he can’t continue this witch hunt because ratings are too important. That’s That’s too much of a consideration. So he’s up there getting his award, and he decides to take that time to address some critical issues with media. And he said referring to TV news, he goes, this instrument can teach, it can illuminate, and yes, it can even inspire, but it can do so only to the extent that humans are determined to use it towards those ends. Otherwise it is merely wires and lights. So I was watching this, and I’m like, that’s a really poignant quote, like it really just landed with me. So I’m like, I’m gonna use this in my intro to the AI guy that I’m introducing. So use that quote when introducing Dr Elliot grant, I warned him before head. I’m like, I’m going to introduce you, and I’m going to use this quote. He’s like, Oh, I love it. I love that quote. So so he I introduced him, and then he what was really neat about it. We had a great discussion after his little fireside chat after his talk, but he referred to it a couple times. He referred to that quote during his and

Jay Whetter  04:02

did you? Did you get a chance to talk about the extensionist at all while, while you were up on stage,

Toban Dyck  04:09

by the way, by the way, dr, dr, Grant, my friend Jay and I

Jay Whetter  04:15

have a podcast. I didn’t and then he said, Good evening and good night. What was the name of that movie? Good night and good luck. Good night and good luck. Yeah, yeah, which was his sign off? That’s great. Congratulations. Nicely done up there. And it’s nice to weave in, you know, something that you saw earlier in the day and weave it into the conversation. It’s fun when you can do that, yeah? So,

Toban Dyck  04:40

so it was, it was an interest, and I want to talk because you were at canola week the same time, yeah, so we were both kind of taking over Canada, at that, at that, for that, for that weekend, but for that week. But it was one of those things where, and I’m sure you’ve encountered this before too, where you. It could have gone either way. Like, when you when you read a quote, like, when you when I was watching the movie, I’m like, yeah, it’s poignant to me now, but there’s like, that voice in your head be like, well, like, is it poignant to an audience of 300 like, is will this when I read it again in my hotel room later that evening? Am I going to find it just as relevant and as impactful? Should I take that risk, or should I just kind of talk in very Pat ways?

Jay Whetter  05:25

I think you should take risks within reason. Yes, that makes it more interesting. It doesn’t always work out. Sometimes it’s falls a bit flat, but it is worth trying new things to open up a conversation.

Toban Dyck  05:41

And I guess that’s the thing. One has to be okay with it falling flat, because it will. Sometimes it’s not always going to be it’s not always going to land. But this one did like it really, for me as a moderator, it really set the tone, I think, for a great, like great two panels of discussion, because it started with that, with that piece, that I was such a part of me where, like, I felt really invested in those two panels, because I started that way. Yeah, well,

Jay Whetter  06:12

we should probably get on with the podcast. We

Toban Dyck  06:15

should. But before we move on, I want to take a moment to thank today’s episode sponsor Sask oil seeds. Now on to Tracy. Top notch farming extension meetings are back this February, featuring presentations on the latest barley, canola, flax research and agronomy, global markets and Prairie hydrology.

Jay Whetter  06:39

Meetings will be held in Hudson Bay, Melford, Weyburn and

Toban Dyck  06:42

moosamon. These events are free to attend, and lunch will be provided. Register now@saskanola.com. Our guest today is Tracy Herbert. Tracy is extension and communications director with the beef cattle Research Council and Tracy. You live in Lloydminster, but you are from the Neil Berg Maidstone area, yeah. What was your family farm like?

Tracy Herbert  07:17

My Yeah, my parents are now my brother who’s farming with them. My parents are in their late 70s now, but still farming and so, yeah, like you said, they’re between the Newberg and Maidstone area mixed operations. So they grow mostly barley, wheat and canola, and currently have about 200 head of purebred speckle part cattle. So my parents were part of the we’re a big part of the development of that breed, actually. So my dad was the first president of the Canadian speckle Park Association, and my mom was the register and secretary for a number of years. So my childhood was very much focused on promoting and developing the speckle Park breed. So

Toban Dyck  07:55

speckle speckle Park, how do you Yeah, I have never heard it. Yeah,

Tracy Herbert  08:00

that’s right. So what’s it look they’re one of only two breeds developed in Canada, haze converter being the other one, which is less common. But yeah. So there are the British white Park breed with some short horn and Black Angus genetics mixed together. And so they have a distinctive pattern where they are speckled. They’ve got black eyes, ears and feet, and then kind of a white body with black spots. And, yeah, they’ve really gained popularity in Canada and the states, and now Australia and Ireland, and it’s been pretty rewarding for my folks. And

Jay Whetter  08:33

what is it about them? Are they? Is the winter hardiness? Is that? Is it the nice combination of the the Angus and the like, maybe I don’t I think you said all British breeds in there, though, which tend to be smaller. Like, is there a big continental breed in there that gives the body size?

Tracy Herbert  08:50

No, they’re a British breed. So they are that smaller frame. They’re very docile, yeah, winter hardy. And then carcass quality is one of their main attributes. So good yielding high marbling, better

Jay Whetter  09:02

than just straight Angus or straight Park. Yeah,

Tracy Herbert  09:07

the speckle Park breed is number one a number of carcass competitions.

Toban Dyck  09:12

Very biased person. Yeah, exactly, of course,

Jay Whetter  09:18

obvious level of bias get you into trouble with all the other people involved in beef, or is it just good fun? It’s

Toban Dyck  09:24

like, oh, there she goes talking about speckle Park breeds again. Exactly

Tracy Herbert  09:27

No, it’s good fun. I mean, people have teased me a number of times about, you know about promoting the speckle Park breed, and I mean that that’s my parents legacy. That’s the work that they’ve done. But people do seem to find that to be. An interesting tidbit about me is that that is part of my background. I grew up with purebred Herefords, and then they eventually my dad and my brother, mostly my dad bred them with a larger continental European breed for the bigger carcass size. But I still have a soft spot in my. Heart for Herefords. So does that? How do you feel about me now that

Toban Dyck  10:06

you know that one to 10? Yeah,

10:08

we can still be friends. Okay,

Toban Dyck  10:10

the podcast can continue.

Jay Whetter  10:13

You went to high school in Neil Burg. I did a little bit of research. Do you know where Neil Berg got its name? I’m putting you on this.

Tracy Herbert  10:22

Oh, someone whose last name was Neil, I

Jay Whetter  10:27

think very close. His name was Clifford O’Neal, but maybe that was a little too Irish for for a town name. So they, or he, just called it Neil Burke. It’s funny how so he was the first he ran the first post office. And it’s quite interesting how many of our towns on the prairies are named after the first post postman or post person? For sure? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s a lot of power those male people had anyway, yeah. What was Neil Berg like as a kid growing up? Well,

Tracy Herbert  11:01

it’s a very small community. I think the population is maybe 350 people. I mean, I graduated with a number of the same people that I went to school since kindergarten with, and so I feel like I have a kind of lifelong family and community, even though I don’t still live there. But it was a real culture shock when I went to university in Calgary, and my first class on my first day had more people in it than my hometown.

Toban Dyck  11:34

Eye opening, yeah. What

Jay Whetter  11:36

was that class? Do you remember? Do you remember it distinctly?

Tracy Herbert  11:41

I remember the room. I remember where I sat in the room. I think it was probably maybe biology, 101, or something. I can’t quite remember, but we’re

Jay Whetter  11:51

going to talk about psychology eventually,

Toban Dyck  11:54

like in this

Jay Whetter  11:56

podcast. Okay, but I wanted to ask one other thing about one of your other hometowns, I’m saying psychology, because you ended up with a double major, and one of them was psychology, but Maidstone, so your farm was between nielberg and Maidstone, and when you and I were talking earlier, I mentioned that Jodi Mitchell had a Maidstone connection. She spent some years going up there, and she was like the Taylor Swift of her, of her day. And there’s this one, there’s this one, they always

Toban Dyck  12:29

like to have a Taylor Swift reference.

Jay Whetter  12:33

There’s this one reference in this song called Song For Sharon. And I’m gonna, I’m gonna read it to you, Tracy. She said that when we were when we were kids in Maidstone, Sharon, we went to every wedding in that little town to see the pretty lady in the white lace wedding gown. And then it goes on to say, this is a few seconds later. And when skating after golden Reggie, you know what was the white lace I was chasing. Is your dad named Reggie or reg? I’m just wondering if this, if there’s a little reference to your some, some, at least it sounds to me like she says golden Reggie. And so I was wondering if you knew who that reg was. Is this person famous in in Maidstone for for being in a Joni Mitchell song.

Tracy Herbert  13:24

Sadly, I do not know Noah Reggie from Maidstone. That would be really fun. My dad’s name is John. He does. He is not a fan of Joni Mitchell, and so we have teased maybe she broke his heart when they were teenagers or something. We don’t know why, what that’s about, but

Toban Dyck  13:41

yeah, like, what’s with all these random facts? I’m just

Jay Whetter  13:44

doing some homework. So we do these pre interviews. And so Tracy, we knew we know a bit about Tracy and where she’s from and and I, I guess that sounds a little bit creepy, that I know all this stuff. It’s like, oh, but I am not, I’m not, like, I’m not trying to, like, stalk anyone or anything like that. If that’s at your

Toban Dyck  14:05

employer, not. I’m not applying that. I’m not applying that at all. No. So. Tracy, so would you like your parents develop this breed the Do you

Jay Whetter  14:18

have it or we’re not, we’re done. Talking about Joni Mitchell, we are done,

Toban Dyck  14:22

back to the real conversation. Yeah. Well, we can come back to psycho. You want to come back to psychology at some point? I’m all in for Do you have a diva, like, a clear recollection of the some of those challenges of doing that?

Tracy Herbert  14:37

Yeah? So, well, I will clarify. So a guy by the name of Bill Lamont initially developed the breed, and he was kind of a friend and mentor of my dad’s. And so when my parents were developing their operation, I think they leased some cattle from Bill, and that’s how they developed their own herd, and then saw the attributes and really kind of went all in on really developing the breed. So I want to make sure that Bill Lamont gets the credit deserved. There, but they look different, right? And so not only were, there’s the competition between purebred breeds, of course, but having that distinct look, I remember as a kid, you know, we were not showmen by nature, but it was important to have as many cattle at those shows as possible, so you could have a dedicated speckle part class and not just get mixed in. And so we would show and I remember being at Farm Fair in Edmonton, and, you know, leading the cabs to the barns, going to the show ring, and people literally pointing and laughing. And so there was, you know, there was some challenges, just sort of socially in the in that just in addition to, you know, just trying to build the numbers of cattle needed to to gain that ground,

Toban Dyck  15:48

yeah, yeah. I bet, I bet, like, in, like, in the 4h communities and stuff start, if you start showing kind of a different looking animal, that would be, that would be a hurdle, yeah, absolutely, yeah.

Jay Whetter  15:59

Now the beef cattle Research Council isn’t necessarily about breeds. What is its primary purpose.

Tracy Herbert  16:09

So it’s an operating division of the Canadian cattle Association, and it’s funded in large part by producers. So every time a beef animal is sold in Canada, a mandatory levy is paid, and a portion of that mandatory levy funds research and extension, and the bcrc is the service provider of that, right? And so we get about 50% of our funding directly from beef producers, and then we can use that to leverage government and other funding. And so we’re overseen by a board of directors that are all producers across the country. And so our job is to identify research priorities and objectives that have the greatest potential to advance the Canadian beef industry and then fund that work. And then my job as the director of extension is to get the results of that and any other science outcome, economic based information, back to beef producers in meaningful and useful ways.

Jay Whetter  17:07

And is it about genetics, or is it more about feed? Or what are the all the above? Yeah, all of the above. What are the what are the real needs for beef producers right now?

Tracy Herbert  17:19

Yeah, all of the above. So we focus on forage and grassland productivity, feed management, utilization, animal health and welfare, anti microbial Use and Resistance and environmental stewardship, in addition to beef quality and food safety research, yeah.

Toban Dyck  17:38

What are some of the like I understand the grain industry. I’m a farmer here in southern Manitoba. Grew up, actually, with on a mixed farm. I cattle and cattle and hogs up until I was, say, 18, when my parents sold all those things. But what are some of the big extension challenges you face?

Tracy Herbert  17:58

Well, we’re focused on getting information to producers, and so in that sense, you know, it’s about managing grasslands so that they are, you know, to help producers manage through droughts and get as much forage productivity as possible, to balance feed rations, to make sure that cattle are getting the nutrients they need to have the productivity expected based on whether it’s a feeder calf or lactating cow or what have you, obviously animal health and animal welfare, so mitigating diseases and making sure calves survive up until weaning, all of those things. But in addition to that, we fund research that we hope will be utilized and considered by people influencing policy, right? And so, for example, the welfare of animals when they get off long haul transport trucks is extremely, extremely high. And what are the impacts of cattle if you force them to take rest stops along the way, which is actually you co mingling and introducing disease and extending the length of that overall trip. Or how are antibiotics really being used in the industry, and how much impact is that having on antimicrobial resistance? Where we’re finding the factual information about that so that that information can be utilized when making policy regulation decisions.

Toban Dyck  19:28

Yeah, that’s, that’s really interesting. So it is a strong like extension in your in your work is very kind of policy oriented, like you. That is a focus. Hey,

Tracy Herbert  19:40

my work is focused on producers right and getting the producers information so that they can make meaningful decisions on farm. But the bcrc also funds research that others can utilize those results, if they are lobby groups or, you know, making other decisions that impact the

Toban Dyck  19:57

industry right? Right now, that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. What have you found? Sorry, Jay, yeah, that’s good. What have you found to be some of the more effective approaches to extending beef research

Tracy Herbert  20:14

so the bcrc doesn’t have the capacity to work with producers one on one. We can’t provide customized information, so what we do is develop materials that are freely available online in ways that are trusted and meaningful and useful. So that’s the whole gamut of things. So interactive calculators, articles, videos, webinars, podcasts, what have you right decision trees, all of the various things. And I think that that really diversified approach is really important, so that you are able to get information to people multiple times, in multiple ways, and in whatever channel they might be consuming their information or through whatever avenues they’re most influenced by. So that would be my answer, within the confines of what the bcrc has the capability of doing. But I think by and large, extension is very in the the adoption of innovations is very socially influenced, and it’s critically important to have extension specialist, you know, boots on the ground, that are very knowledgeable and trusted by producers, that can build those relationships and proactively work with producers. And so I think there’s a real gap, yeah, of that. And so what we’ve done is built a network of the people that do have the boots on the ground to try to support them as best we can.

Jay Whetter  21:50

Is that the Canadian beef Knowledge Transfer Network? Is that the network you’re talking about? Yep, and so that was a way to build trust. Is that that was one of the driving forces behind that.

Tracy Herbert  22:04

So early on, I was looking at ways of, you know, we can create these materials and put them on our website and have newsletters and do what we can to reach producers directly. But how can we reach producers indirectly and and the people that are influencing them? And so I started to look into, you know, what is the general extension capacity in the Canadian beef industry? And found that it is very fragmented and underfunded. There’s some provincial governments that still have some extension specialists. Some provinces have none. There’s, you know, there’s veterinarians and vet techs, there’s feed salesmen, there’s nutritionists, and there’s, you know, all these various organizations and individuals who might have extension as part of their mandate, but there’s very few people that are 100% focused on extension, and extension is really hard, and so to have that be so fragmented, I thought, well, you know, if those people knew about each other and could share resources with each other and stop duplicating efforts on developing materials that are equally as applicable in one region as another, that that would just sort of rise, you know, benefit everything across the board. And so created this network to facilitate

Jay Whetter  23:26

how to beef producers, how do the farmers? Use the network to learn new things.

Tracy Herbert  23:34

The network is for people working in extension so that they can be aware of each other and collaborate. And so an example of that is, you know, we’ve got a collaborative initiative right now focused on water quality and water management. And so rather than the bcrc alone scoping out to see what resources exist, what the gaps are, and then us trying to create them, and then maybe other people are doing at the same time, we don’t know. We’ve worked through the network. We’ve met a number of people who are very knowledgeable and passionate about water quality and management, and so we’ve brought them all together. And over the course of two or three years, we’re what we think developing world class resources that are branded with all of our organizations, and so all of us can use them. And

Jay Whetter  24:20

do you? Do you create then articles based on that input. So it’s behind the scenes input. You create an article, you put it on the website, and then other or is it, or is it more of like, like a community comment board, where people quote, post questions and other people answer them. So if an extension specialist is going to go to this network, they can see all of this interaction that goes on behind the scenes and learn that way

Tracy Herbert  24:50

both. So we’re using the teams platform to bring everybody together. So there’s over 200 people in the network now. Wow. And through. Teams. There’s chat boards and message boards that they can utilize with this water quality and management initiative. Specifically, essentially, we’ve got a working group of about a dozen people who are providing input on what the greatest needs are, helping us develop these resources and then, and there’s resources being articles, videos, interactive calculators, email courses. And our goal, long term, is that a producer could have an interactive web site where they could say, this is where I’m located. This is the water sources, like the wells and the trials that I currently have like these are my needs. Just give me information that’s applicable to me, rather than having very long, text, heavy web pages where they have to sift through and try to figure out what’s applicable and use it that way. And would there be interaction that they might say, here’s here’s my analysis, here’s my water analysis. What would you do to make this water better so that the the cattle feed conversion or growth rate as a can improve? Like, what can I do with my water to have more profitable cattle production, or help my customers, if you’re an extension, have more profitable cattle production is like, how would they use that?

Tracy Herbert  26:24

Yeah, I mean, part of it is for folks who don’t yet recognize that, or who aren’t prioritizing water quality, in the sense that they don’t see that their open rates might be lower if their water quality was better. Like, some of those water quality issues are under the radar. I mean, obviously bad water can kill cattle, and that’s a crisis, but it also can increase open rates, and you know, you’re not going to get the high as high weaning weights as you could with higher quality. And so it’s building that recognition that paying attention to water quality is worthwhile. And then, how do I take a sample? Where do I send it when I get the results, what do I do with it? So, yeah, that speaks to your point about being able to plug in the results into a web page to say, you know, as my sulfate levels within acceptable levels or not, and if not, well, what do I do next? Right?

Toban Dyck  27:21

Oh, that’s so interesting. How was like? How has uptake been on this, on this initiative,

Tracy Herbert  27:28

working with Extension agents to build that working group and and develop these resources has been excellent. In fact, we’ve got more interest in people wanting to be part of the working group than we can logistically manage. And we’re in year two of what I suspect will be year three. So we’re just about to start rolling out some of the initial resources that have come out of this. Wow. And yeah, I expect that there will be a lot more coming out in the

Jay Whetter  27:55

next I just want to, before you ask the next question, I just want to have a quick little just about the open rate. So, so with your family farm, with 200 cows, like, what in the industry, what is considered a good so an open rate is how many cows don’t get pregnant, right? I forgot that term, right? So would, would 190 out of 200 be good? Or are we yet to the point where 200 out of 200 is pretty much the standard, oh,

Tracy Herbert  28:26

there’s always going to be open animals. You’re talking to somebody who was raised with Google, and therefore I am really good at I focused on being able to ask good questions and knowing where to find answers. So I don’t have that exactly where to find it, but, but, but I mean this network. Mean It could also help farmers, and I should say, the extension providers, to identify what is, what is a good goal here for us. So it’s not just about the techniques, but also figuring out what what other people are achieving, and then how they could develop better practices to also achieve that rate.

Tracy Herbert  29:09

Exactly. Yeah, so the bcrc does this Canadian cow calf survey, and so we get data directly from producers about their production levels and adoption of innovations and why or why they don’t do certain things. And so we know what open rates are in cows and heifers in every province across the country. If you go to beef research.ca/survey, like that, number is there. We also have a calculator that shows what current open rates are, and what sort of the industry goal is like, what veterinarians and experts believe is a reasonable target, and then producers can actually plug in their own numbers and see how they compare to current open rates. And that industry target, along with 15 other production measures. So. It can show them where the greatest opportunities are on their operation for improvement.

Jay Whetter  30:03

And that is one thing where you said producers could, could actually use that tool. What is, where would they find it? Again,

Tracy Herbert  30:12

that’s on beef research.ca. That’s the bcrc website. It’s an

Toban Dyck  30:16

interesting model. Like, I feel like it’s a repeatable model for effective extension what you’re doing there. Like, I think that’s a really, that’s a really neat approach. It’s inspiring,

Jay Whetter  30:28

actually. And Tracy, you were, you were part of the team, or you were the person who inspired this idea. Where did it come from? Where did the idea come from?

Tracy Herbert  30:36

You know, I was building slides, trying to so so I could present on what the current capacity was and seeing. So I had a PowerPoint slide with a map of Canada on it, and I was parting putting logos in about the different organizations and people who have extension as part of their mandate, and it was just flooded. And I thought, like, this is ridiculous. And knowing how few of them were aware of each other or working together, and how much more efficient the overall system could be if we just work together, is kind of where the idea came from. And knowing that there’s effective networks in other sectors and in other realms and and so in 2016 I think, we held it the first meeting of the network in Saskatoon to see if, if others thought that this was a good idea and worth pursuing. And and they did. And so we’ve just been working at it ever since. And thankfully, the the bcrc Council is supportive of the idea, and we’ve got funding from ag Canada that helps make sure we’ve got the ability to provide that coordination and leadership. And it’s just been growing and growing ever since so

Toban Dyck  31:52

that that first meeting that you had, you were just drawing people in to gage interest. And so what did that pool of people look like? I mean, I don’t need names, but did you just cast a wide net and see who was able to attend this and what did that look like?

Tracy Herbert  32:10

Yeah. So it was extension specialists employed by provinces that had them, BC and Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario, individuals who work for commodity groups. So Alberta beef producers, Saskatchewan cattlemen, beef farmers, Ontario, you know, different industry groups, government, academia, of course, so researchers from various places, and then we just had conversations about where the gaps are and where the opportunities would be and the benefits if we work together, and what the challenges might be, and what from there.

Jay Whetter  32:47

And do you have to buy a membership, or is this free to anybody who wants to use the information?

Tracy Herbert  32:52

Oh, no, it’s yeah, it’s free. Anybody who’s actively participating in B for forage extension is more than welcome to to join us, and we do quarterly newsletters where members of the network will share learnings with others or initiatives that they’re working on. So in the latest issue, we talked to Kathy Larson, who, with some folks in the Saskatchewan provincial government, have launched these peer networks where producers come together online and talk about issues that they’re having, things that they want to learn about. And so the facilitators bring in guest speakers. And so, you know, Kathy’s explained what they’ve learned through that process. And if anybody else wants to try it, some tips and tricks to

Toban Dyck  33:38

consider. Oh, that’s that’s also interesting, right? Like that peer network idea is, is fascinating. And we, I think one of the things that’s fascinating about all of this is conversation, is that, like there are, and I guess I could bring the question to you, Tracy, is when you kind of, when you conceived of this kind of based on, on the need? Did you? Did you? Were you aware of other models that you were attracted to at that point, or did you just kind of would, did it kind of come together from that initial discussion? I’m

Tracy Herbert  34:08

sure that there are other models that are similar, but it kind of came together from that initial discussion, and we’ve been trying to use that model in other places. And so, you know, recently, currently, Alberta virtually has no extension capacity in 2020. The Alberta government made major cuts in there. They’re not really funding extension at all right now, and but there was some desire to figure out a model that might work for Alberta and and so in the development of that model, there was learnings from the Canadian beef tech transfer network on how could that national network based on one commodity? How could learnings from that be applied in one province across commodities and. So considering how you could sort of build those communities of Extension within a province, did like beef seems to be good at this, and I’m also thinking about some of the profit work that other sectors within beef have done to share back with farmers. Is that because that critical low period of BSE, and just the business of beef in Canada was so challenged that it forced a new approach, a new sharing, a new way of helping farmers be profitable. Is, is that what drives a lot of the this work

Tracy Herbert  35:39

the people who were most proactive and able to weather that would have been the ones to survive and continue in the industry, right? And so you’ve got that influence today. There’s also, I mean, the beef sector is fortunate that we’ve got a national checkoff and provincial checkoffs, and so the industry is funding this work, and and other commodities don’t necessarily have that that funding to be able to do it long term, where the initiatives aren’t based on soft money and confined to, you know, two or five year funding cycles, whether, with that long term funding, you’re able to attract people long term who can continually build their knowledge and, you know, take some risks when I’m thinking outside the box.

Jay Whetter  36:44

So beef, I mean, so starting with BSE, and then mean that this notion that that cattle produce a lot of methane, so they’re bad for the environment. I’m just throwing what’s what the language out in the world has been also that, you know, people shouldn’t be eating as much red meat. There’s a lot of headwinds in beef, but I just heard the other day that the global market for beef is actually increasing, which kind of surprised me, because you don’t really expect that, and maybe I didn’t hear from a credible source, and perhaps that’s not true. So you can set me straight, Tracy, but and that, and now we know that, you know, a principal grazer or Keystone grazer, like cattle, are essential for grasslands health, and there are ways to reduce methane emissions, I mean, improve the carbon score for beef. So, so there’s a way to turn what used to be negatives into real positives. So how does, how does Canadian beef or and Canadian beef producers and the beef industry in general, how do we grow, or, like, how do we take advantage of these new scenarios and grow the business?

Tracy Herbert  37:58

So you’re right in that global demand is increasing for beef. And you know, beef has a good story to tell. If you look, if you zoom out and look at the complex system in which they exist, every the production of any kind of food is going to have some negative impacts on the environment. That’s just the reality of production, right? But if you look at the positives that cattle production have on the environment, there’s a net benefit to having cattle on the land in terms of biodiversity and carbon sequestration and all of these things, right? And farmers and ranchers are pretty humble people who like to be out on the land and not, you know, haven’t been voicing that story to the extent that’s become necessary as people become further and further removed from agriculture and the farm, and so that has become a greater and greater focus of the industry based out of necessity, and that part of BCR C’s funding portfolio has grown in terms of being able to gather the data that’s necessary to show the positive impacts that cattle production has on the environment, and the improvements that producers are making in terms of lowering their footprint, beef production is far more efficient today than it ever was, and Canadian beef production is the most efficient in the world, and we’ve got data now to Back to tell that story.

Jay Whetter  39:41

And can you turn that that data, like you said, beef producers are humble. People don’t tell their story enough, which is, I totally believe that. I mean Canadian farmers in general, yeah, for sure. But like, can, like, is there a mood within beef in Canada that, yeah, you know what? We have an opportunity. Here for, for, for growth. Like, is there, yeah. Like, what did you think that’s a real Yeah, is that a realistic opportunity that the Canadian beef industry can, can actually start growing? Yeah? Like, Further

Toban Dyck  40:10

to that, like, what is that kind of innovation potential for, for Canadian beef?

Tracy Herbert  40:16

Yeah? I mean, I think that speaks to the development and now the work that’s being done by the Canadian roundtable for sustainable beef, of which bcrc is a member, along with many other organizations and companies throughout the production chain. And so the crsb has everything from producers to Cargill and McDonald’s and all of the end users working together to understand what practical sustainable beef production is, and then recognize the work that’s being done on farm, and essentially finding ways to prove that operations that are, you know, have existed for more than 100 years, are clearly sustainable. And so being able to tell the story, to explain that the sustainability of it, sorry, I’m not being very articulate when I explain that, because that’s just a little bit outside my

Jay Whetter  41:19

wheelhouse. I want to. I want to. I promised at the beginning of the conversation that we were going to talk a bit about psychology. And I just, I mean, you’ve got a communications this is your University of Calgary, degree with your double major in communications and psychology. Is that I really like, I didn’t take any psychology classes in university, but I like to think that that can be useful in in communications, like, do you? Do you make use of that training?

Tracy Herbert  41:50

Yeah, it’s the it’s the perspective that I’ve brought to this role. And I’ll maybe back up a little bit to how I got there. So so title all day and but in high school, there was two years of really bad drought, followed by BSE. And so while I really enjoyed 4h and growing up on the farm in the years where I was considering about what do I do after high school is when things got really stressful and really hard, right? And so I made the decision that I don’t want to be in agriculture, I It’s such hard work, and the rewards are based on things that are outside of your control, most of the time being, weather, markets, disease, risk. And so I thought, Okay, well, what else am I going to do? Psychology is really interesting to me. I’m fascinated by trying to understand how people think and why people make the decisions they make, and why people behave the way they do. So until I figure out what I want to be when I grew up, I’ll go study psychology. And so in my third year, which and I was right, studying psychology is really fun. But in my third year, thought, Okay, well, a bachelor’s degree in psychology isn’t going to make me terribly employable. And the only thing I know about grad school is that the there’s the people doing their masters in Psych spent a lot of time in the basement of the psych building doing experiments on rats, and I wasn’t really interested in doing that. So decided, well, I really like my communications classes that I was taking as electives, and I seem to have some skill there, and that’s really rewarding. So was going to switch majors, and in talking to the advisors, they said, Well, if you just do one more year, you can graduate with both degrees at the same time. So I ended up with a Bachelor of Arts in Psychology and communications, and then went out into the workforce thinking that I’ll just be a maybe marketing communications in the energy or oil field sector, because I was living in Calgary, and that’s where the jobs were. And then my first job realized that, you know, I need more than a paycheck to keep me interested in this work. I need to work in an area that I’m passionate about and care about after five o’clock. And so found my way back to agriculture, and have been so, initially very surprised, but just so pleased that I could take all of my passions, put them together, and use them in a way that’s that’s had some contribution,

Toban Dyck  44:24

yeah, like, are you? Are you, kind of, like, explicitly using your psych degree and your extension work, like, figuring out how the brain works and how it’s convinced, or, like, influenced by by things,

Tracy Herbert  44:37

I think, a lot about how people are motivated and influenced, and that, you know, individuals aren’t just purely rational, analytical thinkers all of the time. And so how do we craft and deliver messages that are effective in influencing people? And so taking that perspective. And knowledge, and then working with a team of people who do have masters and PhDs in various types of you know, in beef production and agriculture, together as a team, we’ve been able to develop some cool materials and move the needle and increase adoption of best practices in some areas,

Jay Whetter  45:20

I always think of Doritos because I like eating them, but like, nobody in their right mind would ever consider those to be things that are good for you, but that so this is where the rational mind and the like, the needs or wants kind of clash. But with with beef producers, like, are there things that that you you know, given your work on the extension side and the people you connect with there, that you know, we need to be doing more of like there’s a practice that why? Why won’t farmers do this like we they it’s clearly a benefit. So can you give me an example of one of those practices? And then maybe use your psychological brain to try to figure out why the uptake isn’t what you think it should be.

Tracy Herbert  46:12

So feed testing and balancing rations is a pretty easy example. There a lot of producers don’t test their feed to see what the energy and protein nutrient levels are, and then, therefore, don’t know if they’re meeting their animals nutritional needs. And then whether or how to supplement seems from the outside, when I’m sitting at my desk, seems like an easy thing to do. And then when I go to the farm and see the the long list of things that they need to do that’s much longer than the number of hours in the day. I can appreciate why they look at the animals and they say, Well, I there’s nothing wrong with them. So why? Why do I need to do that that is not at the top of the list. And so thinking about, okay, so if people test their feed, balance their rations, and then get higher production levels and lower disease risk because of it, but they don’t feel the need to do it, how do we get them to feel the need?

Jay Whetter  47:20

Okay, so can you answer your own question?

Toban Dyck  47:24

Yeah, that’s the nugget. How do you do it? Tracy, give us the answer.

Tracy Herbert  47:30

So I think it’s, I mean, people are complicated, so it’s various approaches for various people. And so we consider Okay, so people who have already started to feel the need or heard that’s something worth doing and are starting to seek out that information need to figure out how to make sure that they find it in a way that is attractive and easily consumable. And then for those who aren’t finding ways to deliver that message to them indirectly. And so it might be creating handouts that we can make available at all vet clinics. And so when a related conversation comes up about, you know, my open rates are higher than they should be, or the vet comes out to preg check, and those cows are looking a bit thin to the vet, but the producer doesn’t think that they’re thin. Is there a resource there that can open that conversation? Yeah, like on the grain side of things, you know, a farm might get, say they get 70 bushel wheat, and their long term average is 60. So they think 70 is great, but maybe with all those scenarios that happened that year, like 80 would have been a more reasonable achievement. Yeah, right. So you think, like, just your example about how the farmer looks at his cattle and think they’re they’re as healthy as they’ve ever been. My open rates are good. My calf weights are, you know, after six months, or where I want them to be, or better than average, but, but there’s this not recognizing that maybe the potential is actually higher, higher than that, even, even though you’re happy. But look, there’s, there’s a there’s a couple steps you can make to improve your profitability, even, even more and so that, I think that parallels on the beef side and on on the grain side. Yeah, I wanted to talk about your father and your brother. So clearly, your father is, is, I don’t know, cutting edge, maybe isn’t the right word, but I mean the fact that he helped, you know, lay the foundation for a new breed within Canada. But are there things that they do, where you think, dad, brother, you know, could you try this? Maybe, like, do you, do you get involved at all with practices that you know that could be really effective for them?

Toban Dyck  49:54

And how is that received? That received? Before you answer. Tracy, I can totally appreciate how difficult that. Maybe like I’m in the middle of a succession plan right now, and I farm with my parents, and I I understand kind of the layers to what Jay is asking of you, but I’m going to still let you answer,

Tracy Herbert  50:12

yeah. So let me start by saying that I recognize that my my I am not in production every day, right? I am not a farmer. And so it’s easy to have an outside perspective and see opportunities that people that you know is different than when you’re living it every day. And both my dad and my brother were have and in the case my brother still do work full time off farm jobs, in addition to raising families and and farming and so, you know, they have limited time and bandwidth to be terribly innovative in all the areas, right? So that’s my my disclaimer, yeah, I mean, they, are not innovative when it comes to grazing management. And so, you know, we’ve talked about rotational grazing and how they could potentially be getting more out of the acres that they currently have, as opposed to looking to rent elsewhere. Yeah. I mean, there’s in every operation, every producer, there’s going to be facets where they’re innovative and there’s going to be facets where they’re laggards. And so when you’re working in extension, you know, we think about the continuum of the the early adopters and the early majority and the late majority and the laggards. And unfortunately for us, Extension folks, nobody fits in one spot along that continuum, depending on the practice or the innovation that one person is going to be all over that map. That’s interesting.

Toban Dyck  51:51

It’s interesting way to kind of break it down. Do you think that way when you think about extension? Do you have those like, those, those, I mean, the divides aren’t clear. You said that already, and I can appreciate that. But do you think about things in those categories? I do.

Tracy Herbert  52:04

I also think about the the motivations behind people’s decisions. And so, you know, some people are like a modern family business, where they are focused on making a profit and running an efficient business. There’s also people who are farming because it’s a lifestyle choice, and they’re not motivated by financial gain, but they’re more interested in maintaining just high farming standards. There’s also a lot of people, I think, that are just, they’re more custodians, and they’re just, they’re really deeply committed to protecting the countryside and consider themselves guardians of a farming heritage. And so if I’m trying to persuade a custodian, I don’t lead with the profit potential that they’re leaving on the table, because that’s not going to motivate existing.

Jay Whetter  52:56

Yeah, that is. How do you know what, Which one, which category they fit in? Before you have that conversation, is there a couple of questions you can ask to see where there are their approach or their philosophy,

Toban Dyck  53:08

intuition, maybe, or Yeah,

Tracy Herbert  53:10

yeah, I’m sure that there are. But because we don’t work with producers one on one, what we do is try to develop resources that would work for every one of those categories. So if you’re

Jay Whetter  53:23

an extension provider, like, then yeah, so, so knowing the person will really affect the message, which is really, yeah, really good message. I think

Toban Dyck  53:35

that’s really, that’s really cool, yeah, yeah. That’s really a neat approach,

Tracy Herbert  53:40

which goes back to you know why it’s so important to have a lot of boots on the ground extension specialists that can get to know individual operations and producers and have those relationships so that they know what information to deliver, when and how, in a way that’s actually applicable and effective. I want to ask about one more thing, and maybe you’ll like to talk about this, because it’s a really, really neat program, and it’s about how sort of, you know, building the industry through its people. And you have this Canadian cattle young leaders, mentor, mentee program, and I know that you have a of you’re the mentor. You have a mentee in Ontario. And so is that? Tell me, I really love that program where you you connect new up and comers in the industry with with someone who’s more experienced. Like, tell me the motivation behind that? Where did that come from?

Tracy Herbert  54:42

Yeah, the Canadian cattle Association developed that program more than 10 years ago. And I wasn’t of all involved in that initial development of the program. And bcrc has ended up developing one similar for specifically for researchers, because we find. And that they’re a lot of researchers today either didn’t grow up in agriculture or didn’t grow up in Canada, and so we’re now pairing them with farmers and industry experts for that mentorship as well. But yeah, going back to the Catalan Leaders Program, considering the importance of having the next generation have the networks and the leadership skills necessary to keep the industry moving forward. Wanted to be able to make sure that that the experienced folks today could pass that knowledge along and so kind of create that infrastructure where that could happen. So yeah, I was honored to be asked to be a mentor this past year for a young professional in Ontario who’s very passionate about knowledge mobilization, and she was looking for some sort of post secondary opportunities, or, you know, micro credentials, or courses online where she could learn about and develop some extension skills, especially related to beef production, and there really aren’t any, and that’s what led her to the cyl program and ultimately getting connected with me. But I think that highlights another thing that’s worth talking about, where if you want to be an extension specialist in the beef industry, there’s not much opportunity to develop those for for education or courses to learn those skills. A lot of us are doing it by trial and error. I think it’s

Toban Dyck  56:32

safe to say across the ag industry, but the grain has a similar gap as well. I hear from from many organizations, associations that you know, what used to be kind of very well built infrastructure in Canada, like, you know, courses at Guelph or whatever on ag extension. This doesn’t that. They don’t exist anymore. And that’s a real, that’s a real noticeable, yeah, void in the industry, I would say, yeah, yeah. I

Tracy Herbert  57:03

was gonna say, I mean, you can get a Masters of agriculture extension from universities in the States, but I don’t think you could even take an undergrad course in extension in Canada.

Toban Dyck  57:13

No, no, and there, yeah, but yeah, go ahead, Jay, no. I was just

Jay Whetter  57:16

gonna say, when we invited you to be part of this podcast, and I’ve really enjoyed the conversation, because this beef is doing just some some amazing things that hopefully other people listen and pick up upon. But I was wondering if you had something written down that you really wanted to say, that we didn’t ask a question that opened up that opportunity. Is there anything, anything you really wanted to share?

Tracy Herbert  57:39

You know, I would say that, generally speaking, the best approach for extension is to meet people where they are, wherever they are, because I think the only way that you can help people move forward is by building relationships and understanding where their individual process begins, not focusing solely on where we want them to be. So I would say that the greatest skill and effective extension is empathy.

Toban Dyck  58:14

I like that. What a great way to wrap Absolutely. Yeah, well, it’s been a bit of pleasure. Tracy, for sure, I’m gonna, I’m gonna copy some of your ideas. I hope you don’t mind.

Tracy Herbert  58:25

Definitely. Please do no thank you for the invitation. I’m a fan of your work and really appreciate what you’re doing with this podcast. So it’s been, it was a real treat to be invited as a guest. Oh, it’s

Toban Dyck  58:37

definitely our pleasure. Yeah, great to hear. Thanks again, Tracy, thanks so much. Have a great day.

Jay Whetter  58:47

Really enjoyed that conversation with Tracy. I just, I think, and maybe it’s because I don’t talk to enough beef people, but I feel like they’re doing things that are under the rate, not under the radar for them, but under the radar for the rest of us that are really interesting,

Toban Dyck  59:02

I get inspired, yeah, yeah. I agree. I agree. I get really inspired by people who are able to, like, she was able to bring that network, like extension wise, like, build a network, a Canadian wide, Canada wide network of people interested in extension and and then, you know, form this working group and like, that infrastructure, that scaffolding, is really interesting I got. And I think, like, I, I’ve, you know, just somebody who runs a company that’s, you know, specializes in egg extension that was, like, I’ve drafted, I’ve drawn, drawn that out on a ton of paper a million times, right? That’s needed, right? But to actually take it and then do it and then start building it. I mean, she’s, I think that’s, it’s just, it’s, it’s great to hear that there are successful models out there and and her approach seemed. Is, it seems efficient and good from what, from what we could glean, yeah,

Jay Whetter  1:00:07

and she’s clearly in an industry that she’s comfortable with and loves and supports and is a big champion of Yes, yes, which I think helps. I mean, I’m not saying you you don’t have to have a farm background in agriculture, because we’d be much poorer as an industry if we only hired farmers to do stuff, because that outside expertise is really critical. Yeah, the fresh perspective is nice, yeah, but to have that a champion like Tracy is I just love to see people like that at work. What to

Toban Dyck  1:00:39

think about like, to think about egg extension, both, like she said, empathy was, was really important. And that’s a that’s a neat that’s a neat takeaway, but also to think about people in those categories, right? Not that I think, you know, categories are the end all and be all. We all kind of are. We’re all many things, but, but it’s an interesting approach to it. It’s another layer to apply to how we do egg extension, right? Like that whole early adopter, laggard, and I forget what the middle ones were, but the Yeah, it’s a, it’s a neat way to, like, develop in the development of like resources and stuff to think, like, Okay, here’s some, here’s a set of resources for those early adopters, right? And then you can, you can do tailor stuff towards them, you know, here’s stuff that’s more tailored to a group that might be reticent, or, you know, calling them like arts maybe, but like, whatever, right, whatever you’re going to call them, I think that’s a really neat approach.

Jay Whetter  1:01:45

And I mean, the way our industry is is often that those primary conversations about extension and practices and best practices are with people who are selling you stuff. And there’s obviously many, many great people in those roles. But at the same time, we don’t have a lot of those real third party, sort of unbiased and that they’re not selling you something like those old government extension people, yeah, there’s not a lot of that kind of person, yeah, anymore. No, no. And within cattle, maybe there are independent advisors, like there are independent agronomists who aren’t they aren’t selling products. They’re just selling ideas. And I think that’s really helpful for a farm to at least check in with with people like that, even if you don’t want to spend 1000s of dollars a year on a dedicated agronomy specialist, but at least have those conversations in addition to the ones you’re having with the retails. Yeah,

Toban Dyck  1:02:42

yeah, no, it’s, it’s a, it’s, it’s quite it’s neat. I hope, yeah, I’d love to mimic some of that. Yeah. And once again, thank you to our episode sponsor Sask oil seeds,

Jay Whetter  1:02:59

who’s urging you to stay connected with them by subscribing to their texting service to receive agronomy resources, event updates and urgent news right to your phone.

Toban Dyck  1:03:08

Got questions, start a two way conversation and get answers directly from the Sask oil seeds team.

Jay Whetter  1:03:15

Visit SAS canola.com/texting for details on how to subscribe, this has been a burr forest group production. We also want to thank the people you don’t see

Toban Dyck  1:03:29

we’re here. We’re chatting away with our guests, but there’s tons of people who work behind the scenes to make this podcast happen. Ryan Sanchez, our director, Ashley Robinson, is the coordinator, and Abby wall is our producer and editor. You.