Episode 4:

Paul Galpern

Transcript

Toban Dyck  00:03

This is the extensionist conversations with great thinkers in agriculture. I’m Toban Dyck

Jay Whetter  00:08

and I’m Jay wetter.

Toban Dyck  00:12

I mean, we were doing extension because we we

Jay Whetter  00:14

value it. Farmers are still looking for information, even while governments have pulled away from the job of extension so that. So, like you said, yeah, the needs there, and there’s fewer people actually doing extension, and so we thought we’d, we’d jump into that, and we hope that sponsors recognize that the service that we’re offering and give us some support.

Toban Dyck  00:34

As much as we are doing that because, because we see a need and we have a passion for it, we’re also doing it because we see a need among some of the groups that could be sponsors, and we see that they are also looking for new ways to extend. You

Jay Whetter  00:46

know, if anybody else wants to step forward, we’d welcome their support as well.

Toban Dyck  00:56

Welcome to the extensionists conversations with great thinkers in agriculture. I’m Toban Dyck.

Jay Whetter  01:01

I’m Jay wetter, and we’ve got with us. Paul galpern, Paul, can you just give us a brief intro of your your job description and who you are? Who you are, yeah,

Paul Galpern  01:11

who I am, okay,

Toban Dyck  01:12

my I not existentially, just maybe, but,

Paul Galpern  01:16

well, I guess I if you define yourself by how you work, I’m a professor at the University of Calgary. Yeah. I’m also a dad and a husband. Yeah, those things

Jay Whetter  01:28

too. Yeah. I was gonna say, since you said, if you just define yourself by where you work, so how would you define yourself? So you said, your dad, husband, anything else you want to toss in there?

Paul Galpern  01:39

I run. I’m a runner, I guess I do that. Yeah? I’m also a crusader to Crusader to make the world a better place. Oh, yeah, should lead

Toban Dyck  01:49

with that. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So we have in our notes here that like when Ashley, when Ashley, who works for burr forest group interviewed you. She asked us to talk to you about your role as a high school teacher and the things that you did there, and how that kind of has, has kind of impacted what you do now, or continues to

Paul Galpern  02:12

interesting. Yeah, you know, I guess, well, one of the things you do as a professor is you actually have to teach as well as doing research. In fact, most people think that’s what professors do most of the time. And in fact, that’s, you know, it’s about 40% of our time is teaching. So I guess the teaching part of my job is really inspired by being a high school teacher. I did that for seven years. I did that in part of Northwestern Ontario where many of my students were indigenous, not not all of them. I’m myself, not indigenous, but I had worked in those communities, and it was really so enjoyable and so eye opening, but also so demanding of me too, that I’ve taken things away from that, that I now, you know, bring to my own teaching, like, it’s really important to me, to, you know, put the student first, to find ways to help a student, you know. I mean, make students succeed. That’s, like, really important to me, you know, how does that? How does that spill over into the my research, you know, I guess, I guess I really am motivated to, you know, I mean, you know, it seems kind of pathetic to say I, you know, I want to make the world a better place, but I really do. That is my motivation. And, yeah, that’s what my research is about. And I guess it’s kind of inspired by by my years as a high school teacher.

Jay Whetter  03:36

So we’re going to continue on this, Paul, but I just want to note here early on that mostly we’re going to be talking about finding value in non farm spaces, or the messy places on farms, as I think you like to call them, which is so key. But before we get to that, I talked to you before, and I just love your your level of energy. You speak with your hands a lot, which I really appreciate you make. You make a lot of facial expressions. And is that you think that’s what makes you particularly effective as a teacher, like the whole, the whole

Toban Dyck  04:15

the charisma, the energy you bring to, like exactly you

Jay Whetter  04:19

bring an energy to the topic that is infectious. Well,

Paul Galpern  04:23

thanks so much for saying that, Jay. Really nice. I you know what I want you to do. I want you to say that to my teenage kids. We’ll

Toban Dyck  04:31

send you the recording, and then you can play it.

Paul Galpern  04:36

They certainly don’t believe that, you know? Yeah, I do wave my hands a lot. I guess it’s it, you know? It’s, it’s, I am often, not always, but often excited about what I’m trying to say. Yeah, and students have told me before that, you know that the more he waves his hands, the more I want to listen. So I guess, I guess there’s a reason to do it. So sorry to those who are listening to me. I am waving my hands. You just can’t see it well.

Toban Dyck  05:02

I interject. So apparently, some some audio professionals, even if I’ve been, I’ve recorded a podcast before I’ve been I’ve been a guest, and they will tell me to stand up and use my hands, because that will, that will affect how I come across without a visual, just just audio, everything just kind of just comes, comes to life when you do that. So

Jay Whetter  05:23

I say that, yeah, because standing up in a, like, at a bar or something, or at a meet and greet where you’re I tend to wave my hands around so much, and I’ve, like, swatted beer cans out of people’s hands. And have you ever done that? Paul,

Paul Galpern  05:40

well, yeah, I don’t know. I haven’t gotten away with it, at least,

Toban Dyck  05:44

but, but not, but not an unrelated topic, in the sense that you know, like a lot of what we aim to do with the podcast, and in general, as the extension is, is to talk about extension, if you can believe that. So the whole idea of taking complex information or information and extending it, disseminating it to a larger audience. And I think, you know, passion and these kinds of things play into that. And I think I get the impression from Jay, who you’ve intersected with, that you are, you have a lot kind of to say on about extension and kind of advice to offer. So

Paul Galpern  06:18

I guess one of the things we talk a lot about is, as you say, is messy fields. And the funny, the funny thing about messy fields is, you know, I coined this term because I kind of wanted it to break through the noise, you know. So one more scientist yawning on about what farmers are supposed to do. Okay, we’ve heard that before. And when you hear the word messy fields, you go, well, we’re not supposed to have messy fields. What’s he on about? And you know, so and I think that the story I want to tell mostly is that messy fields are a door opener to doing a lot of good things that farmers actually care about. It has we’ve got evidence that it can support your bottom line. It can help you contribute to sustainability objectives of the industry. Yeah, and you might have to drive in circles a bit, and we’re aware that when you add more things to your fields that are not crop, like patches of vegetation that that that does make driving a little harder, and there are other consequences too, like, you know, overlap of fertilizer, wasted seed. So we, you know, when we say, make your fields messy, you know, we understand that not everyone can make every field messy, but I have a vision. I have a vision that across the prairies,

Toban Dyck  07:47

oh yes,

Paul Galpern  07:49

yes, from Winnipeg all the way to Edmonton, you know, there’s one messy prairie, you know. And if we can, if we can add more mess, and I’ll unpack this for you if you want. Yeah, please do. But if you know, if you want more, if you have more mess, we have a lot more opportunities for for all sorts of good things.

Jay Whetter  08:12

Paul, let’s just just unpack mess for a second so you’re, I mean, I’m envisioning like a field full of weeds, which not very many farmers want fields full of weeds. So what is messy to you? You’re not talking necessarily about, you know, those say, if you’ve got 160 acres a quarter section, you don’t mean like 140 acres of, like,

Toban Dyck  08:38

growing kosher, just because you’re like, Hey, look at all that kosher. Yes, that’s messy. Paul wants this from me.

Jay Whetter  08:47

So what, how do you define messy? What

Paul Galpern  08:49

do we mean? Yeah, that’s really important, yeah. So we’re talking about, you know, to use the language of scientists, we might call that non crop vegetation areas, so parts of your fields that might have, you know, grass species might have wild flowers, they might be wetlands that haven’t been seeded. They might be parts of of the field that have that are too dry or too wet, various reasons to seed and they have natural vegetation growing on them. Those areas are, and our research has shown they are the feel like reservoirs. They’re reservoirs for for beneficial insects, for the good guys that spill over into the crop. The language we use is that these reservoirs, these non crop vegetation areas, the mess exports, these beneficials into the crop where, you know, you might have some hungry. Beetles that eat the eggs of of you know your your pests you might have, if you’re growing canola, you might have some bees and harbor flies that visit the flowering the flowering canola and improve your yields and your seed quality. Those are, that’s what we’re talking about with mess, and it’s basically the home for these beneficial insects. But there’s all sorts of other good stuff about this mess too. But let’s deal with what you talked about there first Jay, you talked about the the bad stuff with the mess, and farmers are worried about about the weeds that and of course, they are. You know, we don’t. We don’t want to create patches of weeds. That’s why, you know, managing these non crop vegetation areas is also, is also really important. So, you know, planting the right grasses that out compete the weeds, or mowing in the right way to to minimize those those weeds, those are all important strategies. But, you know, like everything, it’s a balance, right? So we’re going to get something good from these areas. We’re going to get these beneficials, you know, and we’ve got to, we’ve got to trade that off with the potential that there may be some weeds there. But you know, on the balance, and the studies have been done that, you know, these areas are not a major threat. They’re not a major threat for weeds, and they’re not a major threat for pests either, and so on, the balance, you know, as a source, if you like, for these beneficials, they’re a winner.

Jay Whetter  11:36

Go ahead Toban Ivy. I’m

Toban Dyck  11:38

going to just put my farmer hat on here. So I farm in southern Manitoba, when I think of mess, you know, so is there? Is there? What all falls under that category of mess. So say, for instance, like, I have a field that has probably 20 acres of saline patches on it. So Kosha grows there, you know, overtakes the crop every July, every August, overtakes the crop. And it’s just, it’s just, it’s just kosher. So, is there, is there a sense of, like, does that? Does it? Would that fall under kind of a messy space in that, in the category, as you see it? And then my second part of that question is, is there a threshold of, you know, you know, in terms of restoring land to a growing position, at what point do you determine that it’s a mess that’s going to be beneficial overall, and when it should, steps should be taken to bring it back into Production?

Paul Galpern  12:39

These are important agronomic questions, and I don’t have, I don’t have easy answers for you. I mean, my research is primarily as in sustainable agriculture as an entomologist. So in terms of the, you know, agronomic management of these spaces, I’m I not going to be able to give you an answer. But in terms of spraying them, you know, I think if the weeds get out of control in a in a an off field area, then, then you spray them, they spray the weeds right, because the benefits of these places is still there, you know, even, even when you spray them right, we’re not because they’re providing habitats for for insects, but you know what, also they’re doing. And this is another piece that is particularly important, is that they’re, they’re, they have, you have the perennial so that means that, unlike the rest of the crop, which of course, you have to reseed every year for plants to grow, you have grasses or shrubs on those areas which have deeper root systems, they come back year after year. Those Those places are, you know, also storing carbon in the soil. So that’s, you know, increasingly, with an industry that has Net Zero objectives in it, you know, farmers that sort of choose not to farm a place are actually, you know, without thinking about it, are actually contributing to to, you know, contributing to these net zero goals.

Toban Dyck  14:15

Yeah, Paul, do

Jay Whetter  14:17

you think the primary objective for you in this work is that we hold on to those existing messy spaces, or did part of it go into adding mess like would you if you’ve got say, if you’re a farmer who just had this perfect, nice grid of land with no no wetlands, no trees. You know, it was just a nice big chunk of open farmland. Like

Toban Dyck  14:50

you said, nice. You know, you’re really attributing value to

Jay Whetter  14:57

true good point Toban. But when you ever. Of, you know, prescribe planting some perennials or trees into that space as a benefit to the farm. Actually,

Paul Galpern  15:08

this is what I really would have liked to talk about very first, you know, because I message I always like to get across first is that what needs to come first is farmer. Bottom lines. Yeah. So when thinking about sustainability and, you know, messy fields, I think the first thing we have to put on that list is farmer profitability and the farmer bottom line. So that’s priority number one. So the farmers aren’t making money. You know, I can just wave my hands as much as I want, and it doesn’t make any difference. So that’s step one, and then, and then, once we have that, then we can start talking about retaining and adding new, messy places to fields. Now I am really of the opinion, and I think our research is showing this, and I’ll unpack that more for you in a sec. But I really think that we can have both. We can have farmers who win. We can make sure that their industry stays profitable, that they themselves are making a profit at what they do. And we can also have messy fields that support sustainability objectives that bring beneficial insects to the fields close to the crop, or they can eat the bad guys and pollinate the flowers. We can have both of those things at the same time. And I think it’s unimaginative. You know, voices out there that say, No, we can’t, because the data shows that these things, there are synergies here. Now, you know we have those beautiful, as you say, beautiful J fields. You know that look, you know, perfect, but we might be losing something in those fields. And another part of what our research has shown is that from those messy places that the beneficial insects that are exported out of there have a positive effect on the yields. So what we’ve done is we’ve actually spied we’ve spied on farmers fields from space using remote sensing. So we got these satellites out there that we, you know, data. Anyone could download it. We downloaded the data, and we analyzed it, and we compared it to some precision agricultural data on the ground, so yield from farmers combines, and we built these models, and we can show that when you’re closer in the field, in the crop, to a messy place, you your crop has a slightly higher yield. Now, what our work showed here was that that slightly higher yield is, you know, it’s not going to make anybody rich, but what it does show is that these messy places are having a positive not a negative effect overall. Okay, so that’s really critical. Now, what some of our work has shown that this positive effect is driven by, is driven by the the insects, The Beatles, or the parasitoid wasps or the bees that spill over from the messy areas. But you know, as any farmer will tell you, around the wetland, it’s wetter, and you know in a dry year that extra water is going to make your crop grow more. So you know, there are many factors, and what we call them is ecosystem services. They are the ways that nature benefits people. And if you want to get those ways that nature benefits people closer to your crop, you got to add mess.

Jay Whetter  18:56

Paul, is there any amount of mess? You know 5% of the farm area, 25% have you got a number?

Paul Galpern  19:05

Yeah, so that that’s a hard thing to do, because it depends on so many factors, like, you know, the the soil, the you know, your your local environmental conditions, how much rain you get, it maybe even depend on the on the given year you know, how your crop responds to different conditions. So I can’t give you a nice, clean number, but I’m going to tell you that it is not a lot. So there is definitely a sweet spot that is somewhere between a field with nothing in it and a field that’s covered in, you know, trees. It’s much closer to that field with nothing in it. Let’s put it that way. So you do reach a point where you know so much of your field is not in crop that you know, well, you’re just losing money. But then there’s also the other factor that you know, the the the there’s sort of a. Critical amount of of other factors in the field that can actually reduce your yields. So we did look at this. We looked at this through three different lenses. As you see, we looked at it through the satellite data. We looked at it through insurance data across Alberta, across 1000s of fields in Alberta, and we’ve also looked at it using just the precision yield alone. And you know, there’s definitely a sweet spot, and that’s not too much, not too little, is what I can tell you right now. Jay

Toban Dyck  20:34

Paul, are you? Are you engaging directly with producers with this with this message?

Paul Galpern  20:38

Yeah. Well, I mean, every opportunity I get, just like talking to you, I try and share the notion of mess,

Toban Dyck  20:44

and how has that been received? Well, you know, the it

Paul Galpern  20:50

certainly gets people attention like and that’s the point. So get people, people starting to think about this, right? So, you know, I mean, I’m not, I don’t pretend we’re going to convince everyone, but most farmers love the land, right? And getting something back from that land that helps your crop is, I think, totally aligned with most people’s way of doing things. What

Toban Dyck  21:15

do you think? Yeah, well, you have a you have a question. I think we all do

Jay Whetter  21:19

observe or just note a conversation I had with a farmer in central Alberta once, and he told me that he’s never sprayed for insects, and he’s in a part of the air, part of the the territory within Alberta that is a messy area, I would say, like lots of wetlands, lots of trees. I mean, it’s so he’s farming around a lot of a lot of these messy places, but, but then his theory was that it was this mess that contributed to this fact that he’s never had to spray for insects. There was enough of that, that beneficial insect activity, that there was kind of some sort of, you know, equilibrium happening. Does that? Does that sound something that is possible? Paul, based on your work, it’s

Paul Galpern  22:09

not just possible. I mean, I think that’s a very important factor. So it’s so what he observed, I think our data actually also supports so really, love to hear that story. It’s great. Thanks for sharing it. I

Toban Dyck  22:22

think so one of the questions is I have for you is, in your experience communicating with farmers, what has resonated the most? Like, what? What kind of extension method? Or, yeah, yeah, what’s worked?

Paul Galpern  22:37

Yeah, okay, well, that’s real. It’s interesting. So maybe talk a bit about another project we’re involved in in a minute. But for sure, you know, one of the things that I think, I’ll tell you, what I don’t think doesn’t work. What doesn’t work is what

Jay Whetter  22:54

you don’t think doesn’t work. Okay, I’ll

Paul Galpern  22:56

tell you what

Jay Whetter  22:57

doesn’t work. Okay,

Paul Galpern  23:01

yeah, yeah. These, these darn scientists, triple negative, yeah, words. So I’ll tell you what doesn’t work. It doesn’t work to say, you know, I’m standing with big business come shit, you know, give me your data farmers, because I work for big business. I think farmers don’t trust, particularly voices like mine, that are standing with with, you know, the big business that that that stand to profit. I think farmers will listen to voices that come from the grassroots, and they listen to voices that come from one another too. So one of the things we’ve learned in our work is that we build relationships. We convince people to change their practices if they’re willing to do that. We DO IT person by person. We do it by building up those relationships. And one of the things we do is we call that a snowball effect, where, you know, one farmer talks to another farmer talks to another farmer, and we’ve got two great, two great people working for us. We call them our grower, co operator liaisons. It’s a nice, big term, but what they do is they they liaise, and they spend all their days just talking to farmers and trying to work with them. So we can, we can share data. They can share data with us, and then we also work with them to give them stuff back as well. On this sort of on this one to one relationship. So you know what works? The one on one approach.

Toban Dyck  24:47

It’s that’s such a timeless that’s such a timeless approach. And I would tend to agree with you, and it’s great to hear it. You mentioned many, many factors, and you’ve mentioned many factors, but you mentioned the phrase many. Factors when talking about, you know, beneficials. And I think again, the farmer had, you know, I’m a relatively young farmer, or whatever, I returned to the family farm, kind of later on in life. There’s an intimid, there’s an anxiety that I feel as soon as we start talking about these kinds of things, not because I disagree with anything you’ve said, but in the sense of that’s, there’s already so much data to track on a farm, and there’s so much potential things to kind of take into account, that to add bugs to it, and to add like this, like kind of this ROI on areas that that might, you know, might give you some return, but you got to kind of figure that out. That just seems a little bit intimidating. And I want to do it. I want to do it because it’s super interesting. And I think, I think that’s where this is all going. I think that’s where eggs going. How would you how would you respond to that? Like, how would you suggest one kind of, kind of starts to wrap their head around some of these things on their operation.

Paul Galpern  26:05

Toban, thank you for giving me an opportunity to talk about the next research project. So this one, I think farmers should really pay attention to. It’s called the prairie precision sustainability network, and farmers can find out about it at Prairie psn.ca and that’s, that’s the website prairie psn.ca and this is a initiative that we’re undertaking to identify which parts of fields farmers should stop farming now, when we say should, it means, from an economic sense, parts of their fields that year over Year, are giving them low productivity and low profitability. So farmers who are already engaged in precision, AG, might have a monitor on their combine, for example. You know, they’re they’re pulling in all this data, and some of them already do look at this data and they see, oh, there’s a red spot on my field. There’s a green spot in my field. But what we’re trying to do is kind of go beyond that. We’re trying to take a multi year approach, and we do this, you know, I mentioned satellite, I mentioned precision yield, but we do this by bringing all these pieces together and building models. And this is where I have shout outs to my colleagues at the University of Saskatchewan. Steve shirt left, Christy Morrissey, both of whom are really involved in this prairie, this PPSN work. So when you ask, what does, how does a farmer add this, like this additional mental load, you know, what we wanted? What we are doing is we’re creating these free maps eventually that farmers, you know, not available yet, but free maps that farmers will be able to look up and say, Okay, this is what the model says. This part of my field is probably losing me money three years out of five, and it’s only making me a little bit of money two years out of five. So here’s a place where it’s maybe there’s a good decision. Maybe this is where I say I’m just going to stop farming this. So suddenly I don’t have to worry about the beneficials anymore. I don’t have to worry about the inputs there. I don’t have to worry about the cost of inputs, the cost of seeds. And I just, you know, I’m going to design that spot so I can drive around it. So actually, the answer to your question Toban is, do less, and the less you do, the more you get

Toban Dyck  28:45

from the beneficiaries. I just so. I live in an area called the Red River Valley, and there are so many farmers here who love like Jay said, you know those nice, black tilled, heavily tilled fields and that, and that is the that, to them, is the benchmark of a of a good farmer, like, if your fields are clean and they’re just smooth and all that stuff, that’s so I often, I often, kind of think about the kind of work extension needs to do in order to get, you know, I look around me and to get These farmers, this collection of farmers, to change their minds on some of these things is is going to be it’s going to be a challenge, and it’ll take time. For sure. There’s a couple things

Jay Whetter  29:30

I want to get back to, but you better respond to that one first. Yeah, okay, so I

Paul Galpern  29:33

just want to say that maybe the Red River Valley is a place where mess is less important, because I’m talking about this hierarchy of things. So, you know, number one, we want farmers to be profitable. Number two, we want farmers to produce food, you know, to feed Canada, to feed the world. And, you know, some parts of the prairie, some parts of the world, maybe we need to be farming. Has. Absolutely intensively as we can there. And the reason why we do it there more intensively is so that other places that aren’t as productive can, you know, can provide those other services to us. So it’s like, it’s like choosing, it’s like choosing where to do what you do. No, that’s,

Toban Dyck  30:18

that’s a good answer. I

Jay Whetter  30:20

just want to follow up on this prairie precision sustainability network. And you said farmers can download maps. So does that mean the network knows what’s going on on individual farms, or do the farmers have to input some data first? Like, does the network have detailed farm maps? And where do those maps come from? Right?

Paul Galpern  30:42

Those are fabulous questions. So we’re, we’re in, this is year three of a it’s going to be close to a six or seven year project. So when we get to, when we get to year seven, we’ll, we’ll have, our goal is to have a product that we can, we can release widely, that will have, that will have maps, ideally. And our goal. This is our goal. This is a huge goal of wall to wall, across that prairies, of where of fields, of parts of fields where we see lower productivity and lower lower profit potential across multiple years. So we’re not we don’t quite have that tool yet, but that’s where we’re heading, and to get there, we actually need help from as many farmers who are willing to help us. Right now, I think we have upwards of 90 farms or farmers enrolled. We’ve got upwards of seven or 8000 fields that are like the data that we feed into this machine, this monster, this model that spits out these maps, and we need more of that to feed into the machine to help us make these maps. So you know, if farmers see potential here. Please get in touch. You can get in touch with us through that prairie psn.ca,

Toban Dyck  32:05

so they, but

Jay Whetter  32:08

it’s their, their participating, their and it’s their data, yeah. What is that participation?

Toban Dyck  32:14

They’re

Jay Whetter  32:15

uploading their own data to create these profit maps or these productivity maps, right?

Paul Galpern  32:20

So, yeah, that what way that works is we don’t actually see their data particularly so we don’t we, and this is a really important point. So when a farmer shares data, we’re not, we’re not, we’re not revealing facts about what they actually got in their field. What we’re doing is using that to build a model that says, given the the the conditions on the land that we see from space, given the you know how, how much productivity we’ve seen from space, across those fields, which parts of Your fields are likely to do better in the future. So it’s not like you give us your data. We’re going to tell the whole world about what your crop was like. Rather, we’re going to use that information to to learn about the land and then share that land, that information about the land. Yeah, that’s interesting. Now, did that you know, as a farmer, you know, Toban, for example. Does that make you feel uncomfortable to that in any way?

Toban Dyck  33:25

No, not in any way. My head always goes to, you know, what does that, what does that look like for me? Like? The the idea of, is it just one more thing I need to do? You know? What does participation look like? I always look for, you know, a lot of these, lot of these, lot of these companies come up with new software that they want us to farmers to use that that aggregates all their data and spits out recommendations. But the, but the the onus is on the farmer to then spend the hours inputting that data into these spreadsheets and gives them, give them years and years of your, of your, you know, farm, yeah, data, which is, in principle, I have no issue with. It’s just finding the time to do it. So if participation is relatively simple, and it’s a matter of just me consenting to to the group your research to use it, I’m all in. I think, I think that’s, that’s, that’s a fabulous approach, but I definitely look for that workload. How much is it going to take of me when it’s already busy during the growing season? For

Paul Galpern  34:27

sure, for sure. And we’re very, we’re very aware of that. Yeah, I’m

Toban Dyck  34:30

sure you are. Yeah,

Jay Whetter  34:31

this idea of identifying non profitable, like serially or perennially non profitable, spaces within a farm, and then doing something different with them. Great for economics and again, like you said, Paul, possibly a nice spin off for, for these, for these environmentally beneficial areas,

Paul Galpern  34:52

that’s right. So that’s, that’s where we’re going with it. Then, you know, so not only are we just making these maps that I was talking about, the phase where. Working on now is, we’re, we’re trying to figure out what the best thing to do with these areas are. So let’s say farmer says, Farmer finds on on their field. You know this part is, is, you know, losing me money five years out of seven. What am I going to do with it? Well, I’m going to plant it in forage, for example, in a perennial forage, so that I don’t have to worry about it, it becomes a habitat for beneficials. The the roots extend deep on to deep down into the store soil, and they store carbon that there’s also the benefit of that regenerating the soil that happens over time when you take it out of out of production. So our goal now is to identify, what are the best practices, what are the what? What should we be advising farmers to plant there, which blend of forages, for where you are in which province, if your cause of if the cause of poor performance is salinity, or it’s moisture, or it’s dryness because you’re on a an exposed Knoll, you know, whatever that that is, what is the right blend and what is the right approach to help you quickly stop, you know, seeding it and transform it into a an opportunity.

Toban Dyck  36:24

Go ahead.

Jay Whetter  36:26

Oh, no. I really like this. This, I was going to ask you, I have a note here on my notepad to ask you about the the best species or plant mix for these spaces if you are going to plan one like you’re suggesting. And is this something you know now, or is this going to evolve?

Paul Galpern  36:44

All right? So first of all, if you want to do this, farmers listening, please call us, because we want to do it with you so we can, we will work with you right now to to identify which parts of your fields have the potential. We could be talking 12345, acres could be quite small, relatively that we help you remove from production, and we’ll advise you on forage blends that they’re suitable for your location. Jay, we don’t have an answer yet of which forage blends are going to be right in which situations, and that’s a major part of our ongoing research. So we are and that’s why we need farmers interested in trialing this with us?

Jay Whetter  37:23

Are you looking at trees as well, or is it more just perennial crop or not? Crops, but

Toban Dyck  37:28

plants? Yeah, plants, yeah,

Paul Galpern  37:31

yeah. So we’re working right now entirely with forages. Yeah. So we want, we want, we’re going to stick to that now, depending on where you are and the prairies, if you’re in Manitoba or Northern, you know, central Alberta, and you, you know, trees are obviously a factor too, but they’re, they’re not, they’re not part of our, our question right now.

Toban Dyck  37:50

So, so you, you’ve, you’ve been in Ontario, you’ve worked there, you’ve, you have experienced kind of with the diversity of Canada’s landscape. And what have you noticed about, you know, the varying kind of attitudes farmers have towards their land, or what have you I don’t need you to comment on that necessarily, but, you know, just take that lens and what, yeah, the regionality of it, and, and, and that kind of approach with your experience across the country.

Paul Galpern  38:19

Well, I mean, this is definitely different. You know, there’s real, quite contrast, for sure. Now, I mean, you know, just as a traveler through that landscape, I mean, it’s just, it’s dramatic, just how different things are. You know, you go to Southern Ontario, and your fields are all way smaller, you know, you know, even you just fly over it on a plane. You see that surrounding every field, there’s there’s forests, and you know, those are really important habitats for beneficials. They also store moisture that kind of spills over into the fields. Now, I mean, that’s not possible in big parts of the prairies. That’s where they’re called the prairies. So, you know, you don’t have the same kind of forest, you know, when you do, you do, you have the potential for that as you go up, up north, for example, into the piece, and, you know, north of Edmonton, but there’s, you know, that there’s still, I guess, a different, a different approach on the prairies, which is partly historical, too, you know. So you divided up this landscape into these huge townships and sections and quarter sections, which was never done, you know, either in Ontario or in the Lower Mainland in BC. So you have this, this, these much larger parcels. And it’s because you could as well, you know, you could farm that kind of area. So, you know, if you go to Europe as well, let’s bring Europe into the story too. Let’s do it Canada. You bring Europe into the story, and their fields tend to be, on average, much smaller as well. So you know, field size is one of those major dimensions that I think differs across many systems. Yeah. And. Has a big impact.

Toban Dyck  40:01

I think about this often when we talk about these kinds of things, for for farmers to kind of change the way they they view their own land, and for some, for lots of farmers, I should say, this isn’t, this isn’t a big stretch. They’re happy to do it. They they’re excited by it, absolutely but there is, there is a segment of us who take a more kind of colonial approach to the to the to the land, and it’s always something we need to tame and kind of control. So we don’t, we don’t think about, necessarily bugs or any these things kind of working together with them to create more valuable operation. It’s always how, if the bugs are there and the benefits, it’s always taming, it’s always control and mastery over these things. And I like how AG is moving towards getting rid of that attitude, because that’s just not the future. And I think our farms and sustainability will all benefit if we could, if we could kind of more of a working together, whether it’s humans working together or humans working with bugs. Approach. So no, I value that. That’s just a general comment. There’s no question there. Sorry, Jay, but

Jay Whetter  41:20

yeah. Well, Paula, I want to talk about your relationship with the farmers. I think when you first started this work, there was this notion that the farmers wouldn’t want to participate, don’t even bother trying to engage with farmers. But your experience was the opposite. Can you tell me where this, this notion that farmers would might not be interested in participating, where that first came from, and then how you you broke through? Yeah,

Paul Galpern  41:50

wow. That’s, that is a, it is a profound question, you know, I don’t, I wish, I wish I had the recipe. I don’t really know how we broke through. Or, you know, are we breaking through? Jay, maybe that might be the question, but

Jay Whetter  42:04

you were told that farmers probably wouldn’t want to help you. Is that? Is that right?

Paul Galpern  42:10

Well, I mean, I think that would. There’s certainly a stereotype that that was exposed to me, and I didn’t believe it. I don’t believe that that, you know, every farmer is no interest in finding this middle ground, adjusting their practices slightly to to minimize their impact and get the benefit of nature. You know what? What’s the matter? I don’t think there is a secret sauce. I think it’s just appealing. I think it’s just appealing to people’s, you know, real side, right?

Toban Dyck  42:45

I would agree. I would agree. And so

Jay Whetter  42:47

did you these, these, these number of farmers who you now have a research connection with? Did it start with, with you doing a presentation, and then they them coming up to talk to you after? Or were you driving, or your two engagement people driving farm to farm, pulling in and knocking on the door and saying, Hey, my favorite food is salad, which

Toban Dyck  43:13

we did learn about you. Paul.

Jay Whetter  43:18

No, I just want, like, how did you how did you make those connections? You know

Paul Galpern  43:22

what? Let’s let’s give credit where credit is due. Sometime in around 2014 I think I found my way at a canola Council of Canada event. I think you might have even been there. Jay, were you fishing for that? Jay,

Toban Dyck  43:38

big and way.

Paul Galpern  43:42

And there, there was, there, you know, a fabulous agronomist by the name of Gregory seculec, and who no longer works for canola Council. But, you know, he, his, his vision, I think, was that we need to bring, we need to bring more of these ecosystem services and beneficials back to farmers. It was his. It was his. His vision initially, and working with him, we got great support from canola Council and, you know, so I need to absolutely give credit where credit is due. Here that I think, I think it was leadership by canola canola Council of Canada in particular, and also Alberta and Manitoba canola producers in particular, that that really identified the opportunity here to do this research and and their their funding was critical early on in in motivating, particularly the beneficials research and its connection To the landscapes, and also it’s its impact on, on yield. So, you know, I don’t know if that answers your question.

Jay Whetter  44:46

I just, I don’t want to, I don’t want to leave it until I get this on, you know, because I really think it’s important that this, this research, show value to farmers and and and where possible. Have on farm aspects to research. So I don’t want to leave this until I tell you circled this for me, like those, those connections, how do you how do you find the farmers? And you know, why is that so important? Well,

Paul Galpern  45:18

we we find, as I say, we find farmers by through these networks of of who you know. Can you recommend someone that we should call? And then by having two full time people whose job it is to make those calls and have the conversations, we follow up on them. But we need a starting point, and one of those starting points is, you know, farmers who reach out to us through our prairie. Psn.ca, farmers who reach out to us by email, farmers who, you know, I’m driving down the highway and somehow I’ve got my cell number and call me. You know that happens too, and all of those things are the starting points for for conversations. Yeah,

Toban Dyck  45:59

he had like, a an engagement and interaction with an individual farmer that’s really stood out, like they came to you with some really interesting questions, or a kind of an interesting scenario that was like, Oh, this is, this is gonna, this is gonna take research to a new to a new level. Can you and could you talk about it? Yeah, well, I

Paul Galpern  46:18

can talk about something very different here. So we have, you know, farmer called me, I don’t know, few, few months back, and said, Look, you know, I’m really I’ve heard you talking about this thing called agrivoltaics in the news, Paul, and he just calls me on my cell. I don’t know how he gets it. That’s fine. Calls me, and so I answer it, and then say, look, I heard you talking on the news about about agrivoltaics. And so agrivoltaics, of course, is this thing where you put solar panels in cattle pastures, and you don’t, you don’t put the cattle in after you put the solar panels in, you put them in, you design your solar panels so the cattles can move around. And the idea is that you, you get this, the farmer gets this major benefit from from, you know, the solar generated on their property, and they still get to keep the pasture, and in fact, it actually helps and improves the pasture. You get better quality forage, and so forth, and so anyway. So this farmer calls me and says, like, I’ve heard you talking about this and really interested in the projects you’re involved in. Can you, can you get me? Can you get me into this? So we hooked him up. And, you know, there’s the I’m working with various companies here that are, are trying to bring these kind of panels to ranchers. So you know that that’s an example of and it’s also a research opportunity as well, so we can go to those, to these properties, and actually measure and see how are the cattle doing? How is that forage doing? What’s happening there? That’s another aspect of our sustainable ag work that is all word of mouth,

Toban Dyck  47:57

yeah, Paul, when

Jay Whetter  47:58

you envision the prairies landscape, 25 years from now, what does it look like?

Paul Galpern  48:06

It looks like farmers using the most productive parts of their land really well. They’re still spraying, but they’re only spraying as much as they need. They are still, you know, fertilizing, but they’re fertilizing in a precise way. The parts of those lands which are poorly productive are naturalized. They have perennial plants growing on them, trees, forages, if they’re forages, sometimes those areas are mown for for hay. They are habitats, habitats for beneficial insects that spill over into the crops and reduce the insecticides that farmers need to use on their crops that boost the yields of their canola and their alfalfa. And they’re also habitats. They’re habitats for all the other good stuff that happens in the prairies, and they’re also contributing to those Net Zero objectives, which, let’s face it, the industry is moving towards by creating perennial habitats that store carbon. So I envision intensified prairie where more food is being produced on less land and less harm is being done. Is

Toban Dyck  49:29

there, is there a target number of farmers you would be you’re hoping to engage with? Is there a, you know, so we can, you know, we can put it on the extensionist website, or, like, let’s help Paul reach a million. Or, you know,

Paul Galpern  49:45

you know, I’d say we’d love to add another 100 farmers to our network in the next year. No, but can you give me some feedback? Are my ideas too ambitious? Are they nonsense? I want to know,

Toban Dyck  49:55

add another 100 farmers. Not. That’s not, I don’t see that being an issue at all. No, and

Jay Whetter  49:59

I would. And, you know, my sense is, you said this earlier, Paul that, yeah, farmers, farms need to be profitable, obviously, but there is, there is an appetite among farmers to take care of the land and take care of the environment. I think the notion that these things are separate or not possible to achieve. At the same time, we’re getting away from that where we can increase farm profitability, we can increase productivity, and we can set aside these, these beneficial, messy spaces. Here’s

Toban Dyck  50:36

what I think is one of the soapbox in this issue is what I think one of the biggest challenges is, is not if I take, if I take a group of farmers that I would consider or characterize as stubborn and not able to change, or not willing to change, I would say the challenge there is not that they’re not willing to change. It’s because they’re not changing because I believe they don’t fully understand the issues. They don’t understand they don’t fully understand what’s being asked of them. And I think that’s where extension comes in. That’s part of my motivation for for doing stuff like this, is that the more we can put out there, that that kind of allows farmers to move and you know, progress in step with the industry. I think the more engagement, the more take up we will get from them. And I believe that,

Jay Whetter  51:30

yeah, and I think in some ways, Toban, there’s, I think there’s an understanding that this, this is kind of the way the world is moving. Oh, I would agree, but they’re just no good. This is me. This is where the extension comes in. This is show me. Show me the money, yeah? Show me. Show me how this pencils out. Yeah? Because, yeah, I get it. I can see how that’s important, but I’m not seeing how I can make this work.

Toban Dyck  51:59

Yeah, yeah. And I think a lot of the times when people say they get it, they see why it’s important. I don’t know if they fully do. I mean, again, don’t get into the weeds on that, but I just think more can be done to educate, and not in a patronizing way, but to put out materials that that take it, say all the great research you’re doing, Paul, and put it into into ways that that farmers really like the people who need to understand it, they get it that makes sense, you know. And I’m sure I know you’re working on it, and you did a great job today, and I think, but I think that’s, that’s a big one,

Jay Whetter  52:35

but so just Paul, just just to conclude that thought, then, like, if you had one message to get across in this podcast to farmers and to anyone else listening, like, how do how do we extend this in a better way?

Paul Galpern  52:54

I think, I mean, I think every farmer knows which parts of their fields are are, you know, less good, and they probably don’t need me, our team, to come and tell them, you know, which parts aren’t, aren’t that great? They probably have a sense that a small change to this corner of your field, removing it from permanently removing it from from cropping, that can make a big difference. It’ll save you money or and then you also have this, this other good stuff happening in that space.

Toban Dyck  53:33

Yeah, that’s great. So I know we need to, we need to wrap up right aways, but we didn’t get to like Paul, why bugs? What from you from your university days to what got you from the high school teacher to to to where you are now? Well,

Paul Galpern  53:56

teach is really cool. You know, there’s so many species of insects, and they’re so important, right? You know, they’re, they’re and I can tell you, we’ve collected 1000s of these things in fields, I shouldn’t say that, hundreds of 1000s of insects, and they’re out there, and they’re doing a lot of stuff, a lot of stuff that we don’t actually really know about. So you know, we’re also, we’re already gaining a lot of benefit from insects. And I guess I just, I just find that, you know, there’s hundreds of species. They’re just really cool. You know, there’s a and we don’t know that much about them. What’s

Toban Dyck  54:31

your favorite? What’s

Jay Whetter  54:32

your favorite bug?

Paul Galpern  54:35

My favorite bug? Yeah, you know, I’m gonna say it’s a pretty you know, it’s one that you don’t think of, you know, as being a favorite. It’s a, it’s a Black Beetle. It’s about, you know, it’s about an inch, not quite an inch. It’s, it’s called to rusticus Melania. And this beetle is everywhere. You know, any farmer who’s ever looked in their field has probably seen this sort of large Black Beetle somewhere. And they’re doing tons of stuff. They are eating the bad guys. And we also think, and we’ve got a student looking at this, we also think they’re really important weed seed eaters. So these, these insects, are not just helping control your pests, they’re also helping control your weeds as well. We don’t even realize things. We don’t even measure how much benefit we’re getting from these guys. We’re just starting to, yeah, yeah, no. We’re starting to, which I know, obviously, that’s what our researchers do. But background, background level of this and every field is probably pretty significant.

Toban Dyck  55:35

So was there a key moment in your educational kind of trajectory where that shift happened. You’re like, bugs are really cool. Because Was it, was there, was there a moment? Well, probably, it

Paul Galpern  55:47

probably happened, you know, when I was quite young, where, you know, looking, you know that you’ve got a pile of fruit on your counter, and then the the fruit flies start landing on it, and they, you know, they, you know. You leave it out there for a few days, and all of a sudden there’s these little, you know, little, tiny, wormy maggot things eating it. And then you go, and then, of course, I come along with the with a net and capture them and look at them. In fact, actually, that’s the first time I met my wife, who was I was standing over a compost pile in somebody’s backyard trying to collect these, these fruit flies.

Jay Whetter  56:25

She was a policewoman,

Toban Dyck  56:33

loitering. Okay, no, sorry.

Jay Whetter  56:37

So what was she was also a great

Toban Dyck  56:39

story, yeah,

Paul Galpern  56:40

no, no. I think she was just surprised standing over a compost pile with a net, yeah, but there was, there was a me. You know, just amazing. How many species of fruit flies Do you think there are? I can tell you, I’m getting

Jay Whetter  56:55

excited, and that’s what you asked her. She

Toban Dyck  56:57

showed up. Trivia question, yeah, I don’t know.

Paul Galpern  57:00

Let’s go out tonight on that question. That’s right,

Jay Whetter  57:06

that’s great, Paul,

Toban Dyck  57:07

how many species of fruit flies are there? Do

Paul Galpern  57:11

you know how species of fruit flies? Well, you know, this was in southern Ontario, but I think we were up to about 10 different species of fruit flies.

Toban Dyck  57:18

Wow. Well, well, it’s fascinating. I

Jay Whetter  57:22

can just see the fireworks. Anyway, Paul, we have to wrap up. This was just a thrill. I love talking to you again, and I really, I can see how farmers were kind of, you know, willingly engaging with you because, and I guess your liaison officers too, but I just think you’re just your level of passion and enthusiasm make for great conversations. Yeah,

Toban Dyck  57:53

that extra 100 will be, will be no problem. Yeah,

Paul Galpern  57:58

listen. Thank you so much for your interest in talking to me, Jay and Toban, it’s I really, I really enjoyed having an opportunity to, you know, talk to you guys. And I, I also hope that those listening to me, you know, don’t think I’m out of my mind. I, I think there’s a lot of a lot of hope out there.

Toban Dyck  58:16

It was a pleasure to meet you. Thanks again.

Jay Whetter  58:22

You I had a lot of fun talking to him, very,

Toban Dyck  58:25

very interesting. Like the whole bugs thing is just, it’s kind of mind blowing for me, because it is when he said many factors. It’s like, yeah, that is many factors. You think of all of the things that that kind of have to come together to create a good crop, or need to come together to create an even better crop. And you add bugs yet in there, that’s like, oh, yeah, interesting.

Jay Whetter  58:50

And I think when you can lead with the importance of profitability, when you’re especially when you’re engaging with farmers, yeah, it’s pretty critical opening. And then that, you know, reduces some sort of notion that how far out there is this idea, okay, you actually care about my profitability, good, okay, tell me what you have to say. Yeah,

Toban Dyck  59:10

yeah, no, I think that that is like, that’s the, that’s the hook, right? That gets, gets get some, get some listening. I did like the approach that, like, there’s nothing better than one on one for in terms of extension. And I think that’s, I think that’s a key, that’s a key takeaway, I would say.

Jay Whetter  59:28

And I mean, not practically possible with all farmers. But I think he said about the, you know, you have one on one with, with a few is a snowball. Yeah, right, you know, yeah, you don’t have to talk to everybody, but if you can talk to 100 or 200 key people, yeah? And the idea is this, this message, or this idea snowballs,

Toban Dyck  59:51

yeah, the whole idea. And I like that too, because it’s like, I’ve heard that. I’ve chatted with boards, and, you know, they talk, they talk a lot about that as well. Where, yeah, it’s, it’s about, it’s about, you know, groups and researchers extending their information. But it’s also about being aware of where conversations are happening and kind of, yeah, having that snowball effect, understanding that there’s, like, there’s networks of farmers that have, you know, huge WhatsApp threads with each other, right? That are like, you know, can be like, 3040, 50 farmers, big, and they have their own side conversations. They’re sharing information on a regular basis, right? And so that’s, that’s huge, right? I didn’t mean you go to social media, but I think some of those other channels where it’s not, like, I can’t plug into that Whatsapp group, right? It’s just a group. So that that importance of of the snowball, or the potential reach is quite huge. What’s

Jay Whetter  1:00:48

your favorite

Toban Dyck  1:00:55

insect? Well,

Jay Whetter  1:00:57

I’ll tell you mine, and then it’ll inspire you. But, and this is the first one that came to mind, is the dragonfly I just love. Well, first of all, they eat mosquitoes, I know, but they’re just the the shape of them. They remind me of, like, Huey helicopters or something, yes, and they’re out there and they’re, they’re going after mosquitoes and, like,

Toban Dyck  1:01:18

dive bombing. And like, yeah, I love it and the way they can

Jay Whetter  1:01:21

fly. And, yeah, yeah, they’re fun to watch.

Toban Dyck  1:01:24

Yeah, no, for sure, for sure. Can I just, can I just piggyback on like I just say my, oh, that’s funny. This same with me, yeah, for the exact same reasons. I always get I get charged with, I get in trouble because I kill them when I drive my vehicle. So, so Jamie will often, you know, you just killed a whole bunch of dragonflies. I don’t do that on purpose. Everyone listening. It just happens because I drive, you know, big machines, like we all do and so, yeah, no, dragonflies Come, come up quite often. Fruit I don’t like fruit flies. It was mentioned. I don’t want to say hate. Hates a really strong word, but, but they’re really frustrating, because when they take over your house, it’s hard to get them out. It’s really hard. And then you have all these little court jars with with the saran wrap over them with, like, red wine or something, something or sugary to track them. And then, which isn’t red wine, but, yeah, no, that’s, I actually don’t know my favorite insect would be.

Jay Whetter  1:02:26

Should we give a big, long pause here while you think we

Toban Dyck  1:02:29

should, we should. Why don’t you? Why don’t you have a little model? This is your model. Finally, Jay gets his chats.

Jay Whetter  1:02:38

Well, this has been the extensionists we’re having conversations with great thinkers and

Toban Dyck  1:02:44

culture we are. And Paul was certainly one of those great thinkers. Yes, he was, he was. It was an honor. I love what we do here, Jay, it is a lot of fun meeting people like that who do things that I know nothing about and who I think will could

Jay Whetter  1:03:07

benefit the industry, and communicates, not just with words, but with his eyes, facial expressions in his hands, yeah,

Toban Dyck  1:03:13

yeah. I hope everybody Yeah. That’s right, the whole package. Anyways, I interrupted your in your outro, so

Jay Whetter  1:03:19

you my study extensionists. I’m Jay wetter, I’m Toban Dyck, and we have conversations with great thinkers in agriculture.

Toban Dyck  1:03:27

Thanks for listening.

Jay Whetter  1:03:31

This has been a burr forest group production. We also want to thank the people you don’t see.

Toban Dyck  1:03:36

We’re here. We’re chatting away with our guests, but there’s tons of people who work behind the scenes to make this podcast

Jay Whetter  1:03:42

happen. Brian Sanchez, our director, Ashley Robinson is the coordinator, and Abby wall is our producer and editor. Thank you for listening. We are the extensionists conversations with great thinkers in agriculture. My name is Jay wetter and I’m Toban Dyck till next time you.