Episode:37
Patti Durand
On this week’s episode, Patti Durand, author and facilitator with Brightrack Consulting, joins Toban Dyck and Jay Whetter to discuss why family farm transitions become complicated when personal histories collide with business. She offers guidance on navigating the difficult communication and inherent biases that make farm succession planning so sticky.
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Transcript
Toban Dyck 00:03
This is The Extensionists. Conversations with great thinkers in agriculture. I’m Toban Dyck,
Jay Whetter 00:08
and I’m Jay Wetter. Hey, Toban.
Toban Dyck 00:15
Hey, Jay.
Jay Whetter 00:16
You were in Banff recently.
Toban Dyck 00:17
I was.
Jay Whetter 00:18
What were you doing there?
Toban Dyck 00:19
It was great. So I was like, after you know, lots of work, travel, my team at Burr Forest is like, you know, you can’t bring your laptop, you know, don’t do any work, you know, I told them that I was going to bring my laptop, and that I would be doing some work, because you know, I always take video and photos wherever I go, and that’s how I process them on my laptop. Plus, I actually had a couple meetings that I, that I did attend, which was fine, but it was, it was lovely. We stayed at the same lodge I stayed at when I attended Prairie Serial Summit, and I wanted to come back, because every room at this lodge, which is a very modest lodge, it’s not, you know, anything, anything high end, but every room has its own wood burning fireplace, and it’s a really cozy environment to just hang out in.
Jay Whetter 01:08
Yeah.
Toban Dyck 01:08
Like you typically get that in hotel rooms, so it’s just really nice. Like, we, we hiked, didn’t do any downhill intentionally, we weren’t planning on it, but we rented cross-country skis for the, for the duration of our stay. So, we just had them in our room, so we could just pick up and go to trails that were within walking, or
Jay Whetter 01:28
Yeah,
Toban Dyck 01:29
We took the public transit, the bus, which was fun too, and yeah, we had a lovely time, like it was one of those truly kind of recharging holidays. Yeah..
Jay Whetter 01:41
I like Banff. People say it’s crowded, but I don’t know when I go to Banff, I just feel like I’m in holiday mode, even if I’m going there for a conference. It feels like holiday mode. I really love the vibe there.
Toban Dyck 01:53
Yeah, I would say my vibe for Banff has changed. I used to be of the mind that I did, I didn’t like it, that it was too crowded, but I liked it, because the lodge was just outside of town, and so, like, I mean, like, a kilometer, but so you could walk easy. The bus was super convenient from the lodge, and, like, as long as you.. I found, like, we didn’t go into any stores, really. We just did restaurants, yeah. And that was a great way to experience bath like the food was awesome,
Jay Whetter 02:23
and all the servers are Australians.
Toban Dyck 02:26
Yeah, a lot of Australians
Toban Dyck 02:27
UK,
Jay Whetter 02:28
UK now too. Oh, good.
Toban Dyck 02:30
Yeah,
Jay Whetter 02:30
Branching out.
Toban Dyck 02:31
Yeah, for sure. A few, we two servers who were from Winnipeg. Oh,
Jay Whetter 02:36
Really? Oh, right on. Yeah, good.
Toban Dyck 02:39
But no, it was great. What did you do? Did you do anything good? Spring break?
Jay Whetter 02:43
No, my kids are older, so they’re not in school, so spring break isn’t really a thing that’s in my mind anymore. So,
Toban Dyck 02:52
Right, yeah, yeah,
Jay Whetter 02:53
And yeah, so Jamie, being a teacher, obviously it was a spring break, you kind of thing for you guys, but
Toban Dyck 02:58
For sure, yeah. And you did, you, your last work trip was Alberta.
Jay Whetter 03:03
Yeah,
Toban Dyck 03:03
Okay,
Jay Whetter 03:04
Yeah, I was in Edmon… Oh, so I went to Question Period in Edmonton.
Toban Dyck 03:10
Oh, you did,
Jay Whetter 03:10
yeah, as part of the Alberta Canola Leaders event.
Toban Dyck 03:13
See, did you take the whole crew?
Jay Whetter 03:15
They, well, they.. I just tagged along, they organized it all and said we’re going to question period, and I said, yeah, definitely, I’m in, for sure. So, it was Danielle Smith,
Toban Dyck 03:23
yeah,
Jay Whetter 03:23
and then Naheed Nenshi. So, it was two big heavyweights, and certainly in Alberta politics, but well-known names around Canada now.
Toban Dyck 03:30
For sure.
Jay Whetter 03:30
And then, so then I was thinking to myself, man, I haven’t – I’ve never been to Manitoba’s question period. I’ve been to Ottawa’s about 10 times. So, I went to Manitoba question period the next week? Did you? Yeah, that’s great.
Toban Dyck 03:45
That’s so good.
Jay Whetter 03:45
Yeah, and so there was Wab Kinew on one side, and then Obby Khan on the other. Yeah, the leaders squaring off, and mostly a full, like, packed house in Alberta. I think we went on the right day, and then Manitoba was, I think, there’s a few missing, but otherwise quite full, but sometimes in Ottawa, if you go, if it’s not Wednesday, I think everybody shows up on Wednesdays, other days it can be really thin on numbers, so try to go on a Wednesday, but anyway, yeah, lots of fun, I’d highly recommend it, just check in with your MLA, and they’ll,
Toban Dyck 04:20
Yeah,
Jay Whetter 04:20
They’ll put you on the list, and just go watch question period.
Toban Dyck 04:23
Yeah, I would, I would agree with you. It is a, it’s a worthwhile experience, just to see how that, how the sausage is made, how, like, how that machinery works. It’s both, it’s both kind of enlightening and discouraging, and it’s all the things, right? Like, it’s all the range of emotions.
Jay Whetter 04:39
Well, if you’re into communications, you either get some tips on what not to do, or in some cases you might get some tips on what to do, but mostly
Toban Dyck 04:46
Hear, hear. It is..what stood out. It’s amazing what is said in that environment. Yeah, good. I mean, well, mostly bad. It’s. Amazing, how they’ll, how they’ll go, they’ll go personal. Yeah, like they cut deep,
Jay Whetter 05:06
Yeah. They’re not really supposed to be personal, supposed to be politics, but yeah, sometimes they let stuff slip and it comes back to bite them,
Toban Dyck 05:13
Yeah,
Jay Whetter 05:13
Yeah,
Toban Dyck 05:14
Yeah. No, but, but, but valuable, valuable experience. I’ve never done it. I’ve only done it in Manitoba and Ottawa, I’ve never done it in any of the other provinces.
Jay Whetter 05:24
Yeah,
Toban Dyck 05:24
Especially in Alberta,
Jay Whetter 05:25
you have done Manitoba. Yeah,
Toban Dyck 05:27
It’s been, it’s been a long time, but I have done it. Yeah,
Jay Whetter 05:31
I’ve been through the building a few times on tours, but that was the first question period of time. All these legislative buildings are also very beautiful.
Toban Dyck 05:38
Yeah,
Jay Whetter 05:39
It’s worth just getting in there and experiencing it anyway. Should we, should we get on with Patti Durand?
Toban Dyck 05:45
I feel like we should.
Jay Whetter 05:45
Alrighty,
Toban Dyck 05:46
thank you to our episode sponsor, Manitoba Pulse & Soybean Growers.
Manitoba Pulse & Soybean Growers 05:54
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Jay Whetter 06:24
Our guest today is Patti Durand, and Patti, and apparently Patti and I have, we met 40 years ago,
Patti Durand 06:32
Plus or minus, yeah,
Jay Whetter 06:33
But, but just reconnected in the past, within the past year, which has been great. Anyway, Patti, as an author and facilitator with Brightrack Consulting, which is her business based out of Humboldt, Saskatchewan, and does a lot of work across the prairies helping farm families communicate, etc. Right, Patti.
Patti Durand 06:55
Truly.
Toban Dyck 06:55
Yeah, correct. Pretty accurate. Feel free to correct Jay. You know, he gets it wrong all the time, so you know,
Patti Durand 07:04
Well, you know what? I actually have a hard time describing what it is I do at times, because it depends.
Toban Dyck 07:10
Well, that’s that’s a really good conversation topic. Anyway, continue
Patti Durand 07:15
The title of what I do, it depends on what the particular situation requires or needs and and so I try to be flexible and open and I keep learning.
Jay Whetter 07:25
All right, so how would you describe? Okay, you said it’s flexible and always changes. So, how would you describe what you’re doing right now,
Toban Dyck 07:32
Given this content?
Patti Durand 07:33
Yeah, so so I mean I did give that description as author and facilitator. At times I like to think about it, I’m a strategic action planner. I help people to flush out and express what it is they’re trying to accomplish, and this goes for each of the people around the table, which often has not been verbalized, and I am. I want to set up things that allow them to be prone to action, so part of the challenge is paralysis of inaction that just pushes pretty important things down the road,
Toban Dyck 08:09
And that could be anything, like, is there like a range of topics, or is it just like, is there? Yeah, what is the scope of that?
Patti Durand 08:19
Yeah, you know what I would say I would describe it as if there was a family that is feeling stuck, they’re feeling an urgency to make a decision and ill-equipped to do so, and they know they haven’t done it in a family business, in particular, that is where I can help to do some triage and discovery and flesh out the missing information that they need to find in order to be qualified to make that decision.
Toban Dyck 08:42
Oh my gosh, there’s so many things I want to talk to you about, but I can’t, because we’re being recorded.
Jay Whetter 08:49
Oh, okay. Just kidding.
Patti Durand 08:51
Then it becomes like a family counseling session. Yeah,
Toban Dyck 08:54
Yeah, yeah. Exactly. That’s very specific questions for you, Patty.
Patti Durand 08:59
You know, what I wish I could say, it was special. It’s incredibly common. It is the human condition in the intersection of family dynamics and business.
Toban Dyck 09:07
Oh yeah,
Patti Durand 09:07
And so, it is most often shows up in a request about some support with transition or succession planning, but as a former colleague of mine described it well, that is a socially acceptable umbrella to ask for help with, and then once you get to the table, there’s layer after layer after layer of unspoken or hurt or hope or uncertainty, etc. etc. That shows up,
Jay Whetter 09:38
So what’s the what’s the toe in the door situation, or like, what is the thing that gets the conversation going, and then you, you sort of unwrap those layers.
Patti Durand 09:51
I think. Oh, gracious, it varies in my process, so if I, if we have a. Read, there’s everybody wants to be part of this conversation, because that is one rule I would have, is that I can’t make someone care about this.
Toban Dyck 10:08
Yeah.
Patti Durand 10:08
And, and so I can open doors, I plant seeds, but they have to have a desire to want to try to adjust, change, move from where they are, and so family members around the table, the very first thing I ask is, why’d you show up? Why is this important to you? And so frequently it is. I’m uncomfortable. I feel an urgency. I don’t know. I think we need to plan, but we don’t have one, which is probably as many times as that is because mom asked me to, because my sister asked me to, and my pushback in that realm is there’s a lack of understanding of everybody’s participation and responsibility to understand the situation and opportunity to collaborate towards a an aligned outcome, and when someone I’ve even sat across from, like a 69 year old farmer, he’s like, I was haircuts, or I was told to be here. I’m like, listen, buddy, listen, sir, you have a multi-million dollar operation and no plan.
Jay Whetter 11:10
Yeah.
Patti Durand 11:12
How do you imagine that’s going to go? I believe that you have this opportunity, but also responsibility to lay a path. You might not know what it is, but take some leadership here, and so sometimes we sit.
Toban Dyck 11:27
Yeah, like com, I think, like in, like, an FAQ page from you, Patti, would be probably very interesting, like, what, what are the kind of, what are the frequently asked questions, but just off the top of your head, what are some of the common challenges that you, that you, that you face, that you see?
Patti Durand 11:50
So, there are some universals, universal things. So, at this point, I’ve worked with over 400 families, which has been just an incredible opportunity to genuinely see a huge spectrum of situations,
Toban Dyck 12:06
For sure.
Patti Durand 12:06
But then also pull on the common threads. It’s like, wait a minute, like this is actually happening on repeat, and it doesn’t matter how big their farm is, how small it is, how much debt they have, how little debt they have, how much money they have fallen out of their pockets, how educated they are, how urban, rural, all these factors that I imagined would have influenced it. It doesn’t play favorites, and so the common things parents frequently feel that is their responsibility to come up with a plan, and simultaneously their children, their heirs believe that there is a plan that their parents will will reveal when the time comes.
Toban Dyck 12:46
Ah, I can see that. That’s interesting.
Patti Durand 12:49
Which is super vulnerable.
Toban Dyck 12:51
It is.
Patti Durand 12:52
Because, does it actually make sense that these people have to come up with a plan that their, that their kids are going to have to live with? And would it not make sense that their heirs would participate and their successors would have a role in that simultaneously. Parents do have the intention, they genuinely want to have succession transition happen successfully, but intention is not a plan, and the heirs and successors putting that level of trust in their parents and the owner generation and the founder generation is super vulnerable when that successor gets to be, you know, 30, 40, 50, and they realize there actually is no plan.
Toban Dyck 13:32
Yeah,
Jay Whetter 13:34
This is gonna sound like a real naive question, probably, but I don’t get why it’s so hard.
Toban Dyck 13:40
Oh, Jay, come on. Just kidding.
Jay Whetter 13:42
Like, why? Why is like a business succession plan a family plan? Like, it should be easier, shouldn’t it?
Patti Durand 13:54
You would, you would hope. And I think we’re getting better. First of all, that there’s an awareness that there’s value in doing so, and so, but that’s been a seed that’s implanted for a long time, like I know in my own research I talk into just one on one with Merle Good, who was a longtime extension specialist out of Alberta Agriculture. The first program that he was aware of that he could recall that they put together around succession was in 1972 That’s a long time, and we really doesn’t feel like we’ve made that very much progress in terms of the nature of the behavior. So, why is it so hard? Number one, many founders got really, really good and were successful through micromanaging and doing all the things, and they really like it, and so the thought of passing that on and having trust that someone would be able to do it as well as they did can be a hurdle at times. There was also a period of time, in you know, within the last 30 years where the person. Who stated the farm, like they were the one who drew the short straw, like it was not a desirable, like, sorry buddy, you have to stay on a farm. Oh, you know, it was a punishment, it wasn’t a reward. And that’s evolved, and so there’s dynamics in the value of these assets, in the opportunity, in the profitability, plus how long people are living that has drastically cranked the dials on the factors that play in the complexes, but most critical. Sorry, I’m not going to finish. I’m not going
Toban Dyck 15:30
Yeah.
Patti Durand 15:30
I think often about this three-legged stool. Fjord, use this as analogy. The operational efficiency side of this leg of the stool in agriculture has just been getting stronger and stronger technology adoption, innovation, so many good things, and management. That leg of the stool has continued to strengthen as well. It’s a little bit behind, but it’s coming along. There’s a lot of things that are really thoughtful and strategic and set up in such a way to be really profitable and rewarding. But I would say the communication leg of the stool in that same period of time, I would argue is getting shorter. We’re not even actually talking to each other anymore, we’re texting, and as you, as we know, you know, words get mis pregnant, autocorrect is helping, and we, it gets misconstrued, or and we fail to even have the conversation, and so I believe I firmly that these are caring, intelligent, experienced people who have never had this conversation and are afraid to do so, for good reason, because there’s vulnerability and baggage and trauma and intergenerational tensions and sensitivity that are can just be landmines, and so it doesn’t happen.
Jay Whetter 16:44
Yeah, and I guess I mean, obviously big businesses, accounting wise, legal wise, that it’s complex, so it’s not easy for those reasons. But I mean, just starting, starting what, so what I mean by the easy part, and then obviously it isn’t the way you’ve answered it, but like, just, just saying, okay, we need family, we need to have a talk about succession, and then I mean, then what goes from there is can be challenging, but why is it so hard to start the conversation, that’s what, that’s what, and again, you’ve, you’ve more or less answered that, there’s
Toban Dyck 17:18
Well, it can, so, so I I’m gonna try not to get mad at you, and I’m just kidding, you just ask my questions.
Jay Whetter 17:29
Yeah, okay. So yeah, I know you’re going through, let me, maybe you’ve sorted it out, but I mean every farm goes through it. No, no, for sure,
Toban Dyck 17:36
in the throws, and like you know, so I mean, every family is different, and Patti, you can jump in anytime. Every family is different, every dynamic is different, but almost every, every conversation. So, I run two corporations, right? I have Burr Forest Group, which is putting, you know, this podcast together, and does a bunch of other things, and at Burf Forest Acres, which is the farm, and that’s where I, you know, farm with my parents, and like, it’s fraught. Any every business decision that I come to my parents with is in my own head, maybe more so, but it’s just kind of is passed through a series of filters of like, well, does this, how does this reflect on me as a person? Am I going to be judged for this? Am I not doing well enough for the family business? All these things, so it becomes very, very complicated, and it gets really muddy in my head before I even have the conversation. So, whereas Burr Forest Group, it’s pretty simple – it’s business, these are business questions and answers, and I don’t have that dynamic. It’s quite, you know, it’s quite challenging, and I, you have a whole, like, childhood, and you have a whole, like, a whole history that’s brought into these, these conversations, right? You have, like, your, your hierarchy in the family, your pecking order, your relationship with your siblings, everything is brought into almost every communication I have with my, with my, with my parents, when even when it’s related to just strictly business stuff, and they, and vice versa, right? So, when they come, you know, and I can’t speak for them, I’m not in their heads, but I can only imagine that that, that gets filtered in, filtered through what they know of me from a five year old who cried until he got roller blades, you know, like, you know, like, or whatever it is,right?
Jay Whetter 19:30
So, Patti kind of touched on that. So I mean, just this, Patti, you talked about one of the one of the common universal challenges is that the, the, the children, or the next generation assumes the parents have a plan, and often maybe the parents don’t have a plan, but, but the next generation expects them to, and maybe that’s part of the dynamic that Toban was just describing.
Patti Durand 19:52
Truly, we have this trust in our parents that they will support and take care of us, and they have that inherent obligation or sensation that that’s their responsibility. Be and so that’s where it, that that that intersection of family and business gets complicated and sticky, and so as you were talking tobanna, a favorite saying of mine is that I, it was Elizabeth Gilbert who wrote it, our family knows how to push our buttons because they installed them,
Toban Dyck 20:17
Right? right,
Patti Durand 20:18
Like holy moly, isn’t that the truth, and so you could have, like, so if this is challenging for you, like, you’re you communicate professionally, right? Like, you have training and pieces of the puzzle, but we can’t undo, you know, some of that, that those tracks that were laid down, or those, those things that we might trip on, and I like, I can think of a situation where you know, I can’t do this within my own family, not because I don’t care, but because I have too much skin in the game. I have inherent biases, and you know, old buttons that get pushed, and so, oh gosh, yeah, it’s.. it’s.. and I feel like the risk is, is that it sounds like I’m saying that parents are irresponsible in this, and I don’t believe they are. I think they’re doing their best. Everybody in general is, yeah, but they somehow imagine they’ll be able to figure it out, and it has layers of complexity and long-term impact that it just.. it takes time and conversation, and if that never starts, and it, or if it’s not safe to do so, man, oh man, it, it makes sense that it’s been delayed, or it’s been challenging.
Toban Dyck 21:31
Yeah, yeah, your point about, like, you know, the exiting generation being used to doing things themselves and micromanaging, and you know it was a good one, you know, for for many farms, it’s all it’s all that exits exiting generation knows, right? They haven’t known how to kind of work in a partnership or work with other people, they’ve always just done it themselves, so to have a have have a new generation coming in and wanting to kind of co-run one business or co-run a farm with two different corps, or however the structure is, is, is, is challenging. I mean, it’s, I mean, that’s our situation, right? We’re two corps, we’re one farm, but yeah, it’s, it’s not, it’s not easy, like that is a because we’re both not used to it, right. I’m getting more used to it through Burr Forest Group, because I work with a variety of people, and people who have, you know, you know, of course, you know, good ideas, and they bring things forward. So that’s been a really, really great thing for me. Whereas I think my dad, or my parents, they’re not used to that, they’ve never done it that way, it’s always been their way or the highway, really. So that’s,
Patti Durand 22:44
And to the point, actually their way, and in, in many instances, this generation also survived the 80s,
Toban Dyck 22:52
For sure.
Patti Durand 22:52
Honestly,
Toban Dyck 22:53
Yes.
Patti Durand 22:54
They kept the wheels on, they kept the lights on, and made deep sacrifices to do so.
Toban Dyck 22:58
Yeah.
Patti Durand 22:58
And had, and has, and have remaining anxiety, concern, fear. They know how bad it can be, and so that layer shows up as distrust. It shows up as, as we don’t think you’re capable, actually, right? Like that, and that message from your parent, that’s supposed to be encouraging you, but you want to honor and respect them, like that’s that’s tough,
Toban Dyck 23:22
That’s a really good point. Yeah.
Patti Durand 23:25
So, I’m so I also want to flip this over, though, because I am an eternal optimist, and I know that this community, this agricultural industry is so good. When there is a good idea, they adopt it quickly, like really quick to adopt, and we think about all the technologies, and I really believe that this ability to communicate the language around openness, around trusting good intent, around seeking help and support, all of those things. I know this is possible, and I care deeply to change the story, because, man, will be unstoppable.
Jay Whetter 24:00
How do you, so the, you talked about the three legged stool, and that communications leg being so short. What’s a quick first step? Again, I talk about things being quick and easy, and they’re not. I do know that, but how do we, how do we extend that leg?
Patti Durand 24:17
I personally am a huge advocate, and Jay, I know you’ve heard me talk about this. Is is the pause, so when you are communicating and it’s something that you know is difficult or has potential to be misinterpreted or is volatile, is this the right communication platform to use? Is this a text? Is this a group message, is this a phone call? Do I need to get in my vehicle and drive over and speak to this person and make sure that there is absolute clarity of what I’m trying to say, and in fact I also am a believer in the practice of prescripting, so when it’s something that I know that I’m sensitive about. I’m anxious, and when I’m anxious, I know my words do not come as easily. I literally will write, will write it out, and I will like walk over, and I’ll be like, so Toban, I have something that’s really hard for me to say, and so I’ve written it out so that I can ensure that I am caring and, and respectful in how I deliver it. And interestingly, when you do that, the other person sees the care you’ve put into it, and all of a sudden is cheering for you,
Toban Dyck 25:25
Right?
Patti Durand 25:26
They are, they, they, they see that, that you are, have you know, that that relationship in mind. And so, in the book, like in the future, later, the book that I wrote in one of the appendices is scripts you can build on, not that you have to say it a specific way, but here’s how this could sound. Here’s how’s this volatile conversation that you’re concerned about. Here’s how you might approach it. Make it your own, but know that it’s reasonable you’d want to prepare.
Toban Dyck 25:54
Yeah, I like that. Yeah.
Jay Whetter 25:56
Just face-to- face conversations about starting with something you’ve written down because it’s too hard for you to say, or it’ll be come across with too much emotion or something, but if you start with a written statement or written sentence of on your thoughts or feelings or needs, and then building from there, I think that’s a great in to a challenging conversation. I like that tip.
Toban Dyck 26:18
But here’s a question. Sorry, Jay, interrupting your momentum. Give any advice for, like, let’s say you know the entering generation, the successor is wanting to have a discussion with with the exiting generation about something business related, but the challenge is, and I mean, whatever, I can make this very personal, too. In that, I’m fine doing so. Is that I bring all of this fraughtness into every, every conversation, like I overthink it, essentially, as opposed to, like, it could be just a very, very basic chat, but I bring all of this kind of, like, you know, childhood, and then I tried to, and then I am already anticipating what the, you know, what my parents are going to say, and like that, you know, and then it just becomes so big before it even happens, that in some cases I imagine in many cases for our listeners it doesn’t happen then, it just becomes too big before it even began, and so, do you, do you see that, and do you have any advice for, for that kind of situation.
Patti Durand 27:25
Completely. And I would say I experience it myself, like I can make up a good story with the rest of us. My brain, my brain goes to unhelpful places too, and just know that that our brains are not always our friends in terms of it is a risk protection mechanism that is old, like it’s what protected us from, you know, bear attacks or lions or tigers or whatever, whatever, whatever war we happen to be in. So it’s it’s that heightened protection that we think about all the possible scenarios, but so I would say there’s a couple things. Number one, I really like asking myself the question, is this true? How do I know it’s true, and that that would come back from there’s an author, Byron Katie, called Loving What Is, which deeply insightful kind of reflective process in to just unpack that and interrupt it, talking with a trusted peer, or a mentor, or a coach, or, you know, someone else outside of it that doesn’t have that skin in the game, and saying, like, hey, like, this is where I’m at right now, like, can we, can we talk this out. So, the one pause I would say is that if you only ever do that without engaging with the person you have that actually has control over the situation, or has an opportunity to impact it, that’s just gossip.
Toban Dyck 28:44
Right?
Patti Durand 28:45
So, certainly vent and unpack it in preparation for the conversation is what, what I would encourage, and yeah, and I would say I support several people, like I have people that, hey Patty, I’m, can I just talk this through? Absolutely, let’s go.
Toban Dyck 29:04
Yeah.
Patti Durand 29:05
I think we can often help each other.
Toban Dyck 29:07
Yeah, that’s great.
Jay Whetter 29:09
You said in the notes that we were given, that mean, and you said it in the conversation here as well, that you’ve talked with at least 400 farm families, but it gets emotional for you, like, how? So, you is it? Is that your nature, or is that this the nature of that whole sector of the business where advisors become emotionally attached, and it can be really heavy?
Patti Durand 29:37
Yes. So, first of all, I, in the process of building the muscle and the repetition of this work that I’ve done, I am deeply empathic and my radar is right up, and I will pull emotions and feelings and senses from the room, and one example I will say is. When, when error, when flights were first allowed post-COVID, my husband and I were flying to the Maritimes for a wedding, and we’re in the Toronto airport, and I mean, like, hundreds of flights have been delayed. It was a, the.. and I walked in, and I could have touched the air, I could just feel the angst and the anger and the frustration and the sadness and the grief, and so I really have to watch that. I like, I know how much I pick it up, and if I’m not protecting myself and limiting how much I do this, it’s really hard on my heart, like, like emotionally, and so, like, I have, I have all types of post-it notes on my monitor in front of me right now, and one of them that I think it’s, it’s long fallen off, but I think about it also often, is I will help if I can, but I can’t always help in this work. Sometimes you feel like you’re their only hope, and they say that.
Toban Dyck 31:01
Right? Yes,
Patti Durand 31:02
Like right. And so I’m like, nope, like I’m not saving babies here. This is not life or death, generally. I mean, certainly there’s vulnerability of mental wellness, but and they’ve waited 20 years for this conversation. They probably can wait another few months, like that type of response of how urgent is this, and what, how will I be able to show up well? And I only have one me.
Jay Whetter 31:30
Yeah.
Patti Durand 31:30
And I believe that I’ve been entrusted with specific gifts that can be very helpful, but only if I manage them and care for myself.
Jay Whetter 31:40
I like, I just heard you present a few weeks ago, and you used the phrase, the answer is in the room, and I think, and so you come into these conversations as a facilitator, you’ve, you have experience, you know where you know the right questions to ask, and you know when, when to pause, but, but I like, I like that, that, that, that statement, the answers in the room, knowing that, like, the this group of people that we’re meeting with, I mean, you know, kind of where we want to go, we can, together as a team, we can, we can find the answer, but you, as a facilitator, aren’t necessarily bringing them the answer, you’re helping them, and is that so? Does that, that the answers in the room, does that work in these, these conversations as well?
Patti Durand 32:35
I, that’s very much one of the foundational things I really believe, and it kind of goes hand in hand with, like, my opinions are relevant. I can give you some suggestions, I can help you question your assumptions, but my preference – pardon me – my preference is not the point, and I can be vulnerable to that, because I can be watching something and I’m like, oh boy, like I very much disagree with this, but unless it’s like illegal or immoral, again, my opinions are relevant.
Jay Whetter 33:03
Do you sometimes hold your head in your hands like you just did there? Body language sometimes just comes spontaneously.
Patti Durand 33:13
I would say I don’t lose my quill very often, but sometimes the baby’s ugly, and nobody is saying it, and someone needs to say it, and I don’t think that I am serving them if I am not, so I will go back to that gentleman who’s like, “Yeah, I’m here because I was told to be here. Listen, buddy, I want to be super respectful to you, but I’m going to challenge what you were setting up right now in terms of the vulnerability of the next generation, and your lack of equipping them to do anything about it.
Jay Whetter 33:47
That’s good.
Patti Durand 33:48
But it’s respectful, it’s such a line to walk.
Jay Whetter 33:52
Yeah,.
Jay Whetter 33:53
Oh yeah, no kidding.
Jay Whetter 33:54
Yeah, that’s why, that’s why you’re excelling in this business, where others aren’t, but we do want to talk about some communication tips in general, because we, I mean, obviously your work is, is with families for the most part, but I jotted down some things that you, you, you say make for effective communications, so you like, you like analogies, you like simple, powerful graphics, and you, and in the presentation that I saw you make, you, you, you did what you said you like to do by making simple slides that are like not a lot of words, just but images that tell a story, and I’m just thinking about that yelling, and maybe the 69 year old farmer who was like the ugly baby, but I mean, you had that picture of this, this yelling, like really like angry yelling face.
Patti Durand 34:51
Yes.
Patti Durand 34:53
For some reason, that one, that one was stuck with me, but I mean, it really, it demonstrates, you know, how. A conversation can go, and I think it, I mean, I’m not saying you do slideshows when you’re doing these coaching scenarios, but I mean, how do you, how do you use these new tips, and I think you’re always looking for new ways to start conversations, so, so, so, tell me, why you like analogies, why, why keeping it simple is so important?
Patti Durand 35:21
I want people to be able to internalize it and remember it, and so I love language when something says something perfectly, and so I already gave an example, I carry around quotes in my pocket like that, I pull it on, like this is what this means, and people get it, so even saying, calling things an ugly baby, people get it, like right now, and pushing, you know, pushing our buttons, and those types of things. I, and sometimes I also have, I’ve experienced where they’re just not getting it, like subtleties aren’t working, and, and other like, just straight language is working, so like, here’s this analogy, and so, and I also will often give credit to, I’m like, I heard this analogy over here, I love it, this makes a lot of sense, I won one gentleman who had established a business, and it was massive, and he’s like, oh, like, for tax purposes, set up another company, his son’s the owner of the company, built that out of that, all this stuff, or whatever. His son was quite young at the time, and no shareholders’ agreements, no no specifics about responsibility, nothing with regards to the son having being in a relationship that was a common law, like there was a lot of just red flags of vulnerability, and I was trying to explain it to him. He’s like, “What’s the big deal? Like, it’ll be fine. I’m like, “Okay, I want you to close your eyes. It’s like, “Okay. I said, “You’re walking down a hospital hallway. Okay, said you’re wearing one of those gowns. Got it? Guess what’s hanging out the back? And he went, “Oh”
Toban Dyck 37:01
Yeah.
Patti Durand 37:02
We can just be like, so proud, and everything’s good, but like, we’re vulnerable, we have exposed skin.
Toban Dyck 37:07
Yeah.
Patti Durand 37:08
And it can come back and bite us, and it’s not to be like negative or wishing for the worst, but let’s be real about just how vulnerable we can be in some situations. So that analogy was particularly powerful, and I’ve certainly used it since
Jay Whetter 37:23
You said you have, you have phrases in your pocket that you like to pull out. Do you have one in your pocket right now?
Patti Durand 37:28
Oh gosh.
Jay Whetter 37:29
I have one. You want me to start?
Patti Durand 37:32
Sure, have at her.
Jay Whetter 37:34
So I do the crypto quote in the Free Press every once in a while. Those..
Patti Durand 37:38
Oh, nice.
Jay Whetter 37:40
You know what I’m talking about, so one of them was we are all just walking each other home, and it was by this person named Ram Dass, and I just, I just love that. I mean, I actually did a little drawing from my door in my apartment that had that saying on it, and it’s just a way, like just to remind that we need to look out for each other, and even with a within a family farm, we’re all just walking each other home. I don’t know, it just really struck a chord with me. So I have that one in my pocket that I bring.
Patti Durand 38:11
Oh, I like that very much. I like that very much. I think sometimes I think about it more. Oh gosh, I, you know what, all I have to do is look at, look in front of me, because I have them in my monitor.
Jay Whetter 38:23
Oh, perfect.
Patti Durand 38:23
So, this is what growth feels like.
Jay Whetter 38:27
Oh, yeah,
Patti Durand 38:28
comfort, pain, the things we want to avoid, the things that are hard.
Jay Whetter 38:35
That’s what growth feels like.
Patti Durand 38:37
Take the good times slow. People talk about knowing, you know, I wish I knew those were the good old days. We’re in them.
Jay Whetter 38:47
Yeah.
Patti Durand 38:47
And, and, and just be present and soak it up.
Patti Durand 38:53
And then the other one that is presently there is success leaves clues, and so when
Jay Whetter 39:02
I want to know more about that one, so success leaves clues.
Patti Durand 39:07
When I’m working with a family, I will, I will tell them throughout my conversation, I, the conversation, I will tell them that I will note, like in midstream, I will note green flags and red flags, so green flag, we’ve had a conversation that included our non-farming children, and they understand how we’re approaching this awesome red flag, that corporation was set up without any shareholders’ agreements, and it’s a different owner, and there was no, there’s no nuptial requirements, for example, and I mean that’s its own bag of cats, in terms of that can be a volatile topic, but there could be some proactive family policies that are in the best interest for everybody involved, including whoever married into the family, and thinking about the business going long term, so I just, as I’m going and be. Because in a family session, frequently we’re talking about like a two to three hour session. There’s only so much teaching I can do. I do think about what I do is a lot of education. Here’s what you want to be considering. I’m not going to be directive, but I’m going to be, have you considered this? I know enough to know you should ask this. Here’s something you know, I’m not a lawyer, I’m not an accountant, I’m not a financial planner, I’m not a counselor, I’m not like I’m a generalist, and so I want to equip them to ask good questions, and the great green flags and red flags are ways to encourage them or caution them, for example,
Jay Whetter 40:37
The analogies.
Toban Dyck 40:39
It’s good, like what’s on my monitor right now is my password for the computer, because my, because our podcast producer needs it anyway.
Patti Durand 40:52
Love it.
Toban Dyck 40:54
I won’t say it out loud right now,but
Toban Dyck 40:57
What’s your social insurance number?
Toban Dyck 40:59
Yeah, so
Jay Whetter 41:03
What’s your mother’s maiden name?
Toban Dyck 41:04
Are you asking me?
Jay Whetter 41:05
Yeah,
Toban Dyck 41:06
It’s Claussen.
Jay Whetter 41:07
What you told me that now I’m able to break into all your
Toban Dyck 41:10
Nothing. Nothing I have is Claussen, you know.
Jay Whetter 41:12
Okay.
Toban Dyck 41:13
But it might be a security question, I guess. I guess I shouldn’t have said that. No, it’s fair. I don’t know. So I think you’re chatting about like communications and extension.
Jay Whetter 41:24
Yeah.
Toban Dyck 41:24
And I just want to like emphasize, and Patti, this is this is this is preaching to the choir here, because this is this is your world, but like how important that communications piece is in a family business, we’re talking about farming businesses, especially, even for extension, like, you know, I feel like, as part of an effective extension program, we should, we should talk a little bit about, like, at least pay some sort of homage to, to, to that, because so many farms are at some stage in that, and whatever stage there they are in in that process will kind of manifest in how willing they are to actually receive information from an agronomist or or where they get their information from. I think it’s much more foundational than we know, like then lots of people realize, like, it’s not just an element of ag, like I think it’s, it’s huge, it’s, it’s where farmers’ heads are at, and, and the effectiveness of the communication in, in a business is, yeah, is massive. I have a theory, and Patti, you can correct me if I’m wrong. Feel free to that a ton of innovation, like agricultural innovation, kind of sits in limbo between the exiting and entering generation, and if the analogy, or the specifically, would be me as an incoming farmer, whatever, mid to late 40s, but still that, and an exiting generation, entering generation has a lot of ideas for what farming 2.0 is going to look like for them when they can do it, and so, like you said, that exiting generation doesn’t always leave very quickly, so a lot of that just waits, and it sits there and it waits, and it’s in stasis, and I think I know that I’ve seen it in other farms, I’ve seen it a lot where these are my hopes and dreams for when I, for when I can execute, and you know that might, that might be, might be never, or it might be two decades, or, or, or whatever, but I think there’s a lot there. You have a current snapshot of what ag innovation looks like, and then you have a snapshot of of farms and businesses being able to receive and and use that information, and those two are not aligned, anyway.
Patti Durand 44:01
Yeah, no, you know what, I would say that I would, there’s, I would agree with it in terms of a percentage of the farms, but I would be able to provide as many examples where that actually is something that they’re doing, and that they are, you know, quick to adopt, or in fact, the senior generation is the one who’s quick to adopt, and the next generation is more conservative in their, in their preferences, and so I always, I try not to make that assumption coming in, because just what I think, like, oh, like this is as much as I said, I’ve seen patterns or some things, I’m like, oh, this is a thing, I’m like, actually, it’s not consistent, it’s kind of all over the map, and there’s, there’s human preference in there, I want to go back to something you said about advisors, I think one thing that comes in terms of communication, I have come become very keenly aware that advisors, even on the fringe of anything transition or succession related, so agronomists would be an example, or lenders kind of can be on the fringe at times. So there’s various, various people in different capacities. They might fail to acknowledge the level of influence that their language has on this. So, if you have a group of advisors that are kind of like on the fence, you’re like, “Oh, yeah, transitions are really hard. Hey, oof, yeah, you’re probably, you’re probably gonna pay a lot of taxes. Hey, like, just flippantly commenting about something they really don’t know anything about.
Toban Dyck 45:22
Yeah.
Patti Durand 45:23
unhelpfully in a way that is actually discouraging instead of empowering does damage.
Toban Dyck 45:29
I like that’s a good point,
Patti Durand 45:31
And I think a lot about that. I’m like, I would love to, and it’s actually one of my projects I’m working on right now is like, how might we equip any advisor to be a positive voice in what the family is going through, because you also commented on where, if they’ve started, or wherever they are, I something that has been another realization, every farm is in transition, every single family business is in transition, it’s just whether or not, they’re actively thinking about vocalizing and planning for the future, and so when families say, I sit down with them, they’re like, well, we need to start, I’m like, well, you’re in it, you actually have a successors that been involved, you’re working on operational training, you’re understanding some role clarity, you’re figuring out some, some, some of the finances, and those types of things, so they think that they haven’t started yet, but in fact they’ve checked several boxes, and so somehow that is a way to encourage them as well, and say, okay, yes, but over here there’s some gaps you probably want to start filling, and here’s how you might do that, and here’s the order that it probably matters, that can also get them out of that, can also be stalling for them at times when they’re not sure where to start.
Toban Dyck 46:42
I really, I really like that, Patty. What you said about advisors, and it makes me think of even just, you know, like when Jay and I do our effective extension stuff, where we, we talk to people to be more cognizant of what we say when we, because I can. I’m often super flippant about, about transition planning, right? I say it’s fraught, they say it’s challenging, like, like what you said, and I think, because, like, because I agree with you, how we talk about it influences how it’s done, or how it’s perceived, or where are we adding that, are we foisting a layer, an unnecessary layer, or onto something right? And yeah.
Patti Durand 47:27
Some kindling to the thing that’s already burning and really not in a helpful way.
Toban Dyck 47:32
Yeah.
Jay Whetter 47:33
I mean, Patti, there’s a perfect example where you actually flagged that in me, so that so I presented after you at this Alberta Canola Leaders event, and I had just one slide about social media, you’ll remember this, and I was kind of, I was kind of on a sort of a sour space with regard to social media, and I said I’m probably not the right person to be telling you about social media, but and then I went blah blah blah, and then the next day you came back to me and said, Jay, you know what, I’ve been thinking about that. Remember when you said you weren’t, you probably shouldn’t be talking about social media? You said you, and then he said, you’re right, which I think is, I think it’s hilarious. So then, so ever since then, I’ve been, I’ve been borrowing two of your thoughts. Yes, I shouldn’t be sort of projecting my thoughts about social media. And then I’ve been using your, the answers in the, in the room, so I, so whenever I talk about social media now, I say, I’ll just like, okay, How do people use social media? What are you using it for? Why is that important for you? And then I just have sort of the, the social media as a communications tool kind of come out of the conversation in the room, and it’s way more effective. So, I really appreciate you, and if you bring that sort of same sort of insight, and sort of just, you know, you’ll push people, you’ll, when the time is right to push them to think things in different ways, and if
Patti Durand 48:59
You recall, if you recall, I was also gentle.
Jay Whetter 49:01
You were so gentle.
Patti Durand 49:04
I waited 24 hours, probably more, because I had that instinct right away, but I also know enough to know, I’m like, no, like I know when someone, especially when they just come off stage, that’s not the time to coach them, the message is that was great, good job, that’s what that’s what they with what they have capacity for, because there’s lots of adrenaline and stuff like that. But I also approached you, and I said, J, I have something that’s kind of hard for me to say. Do you have capacity to hear it right now?
Jay Whetter 49:32
And I guess I did.
Toban Dyck 49:33
Did you, did you ask her that?
Patti Durand 49:35
I did.
Toban Dyck 49:35
Okay, okay.
Patti Durand 49:38
Because you already knew enough to know that my intentions were good, but also I want, like, sometimes, like, who knows, maybe I had a headache that day, maybe, maybe you just got some bad news in a text, maybe, like, I don’t know.
Jay Whetter 49:54
Yeah>
Patti Durand 49:54
And so that’s, I believe that there’s an opportunity, how we care and repair.
Jay Whetter 50:00
Yeah.
Patti Durand 50:00
How we, how we intentionally, because otherwise we’re just leaving a trail of chaos on our path.
Toban Dyck 50:06
Yeah.
Patti Durand 50:06
Like, so I genuinely try to walk the talk, and I, I commend you for being open to it. Not everybody is.
Toban Dyck 50:14
Yeah.
Patti Durand 50:14
And, but that’s how we help each other, and, and I, yeah, so yeah, thanks for thanks for acknowledging it, for hearing me, because, but that’s a beautiful example, I have you, we have our own little opinions about stuff, and I do think about the narrative around transition planning, specifically monetizing the services associated with it, so historically it has been a mechanism of fear, uncertainty, and doubt, if you don’t use my services, you could lose your farm, you could lose your family, you could pay a lot of taxes, and so the idea is, is it’s to motivate action through fear. There was a ton of research psychologically that that is the crappiest motivator ever. It is it induces paralysis, it induces inaction. So my thought is, what if we flipped it over and said your transition plan is important, but only you can do it. How might I support you? And this, this level of trying to sell it to create a dependence, like you can’t do this without me, to only you can do this. It’s a completely different mindset. And, man, these farm families, these are powerful, smart people. They know they can. They have figured out so many things just as hard as this. I know they can do it, and it’s not a matter of of tangering or make trying to make it smaller than it is, because it’s complex, it takes work, but man, like it’s so worth it. It’s this this beautiful process that they get to put their arms around and witness their next generation rising to the occasion. I have another line. Actually, as a farmer that said this, that I love this line. He said, speaking to about his, the senior partner, about the current, the founder, he said he wants to crawl and I want to run, and we’re learning to walk together.
Toban Dyck 52:14
That’s good. Yeah, yeah. As we get close to the end, I really want to take this to like that, that granular, like farm family level. Is there a collection, like a summary of kind of communications tips that you would have for for for farm families?
Patti Durand 52:38
So, so thinking back to Jay’s comment about that, that image that I have about this man who’s clearly fully hijacked, like he is a temper, he looks like he’s gonna bite someone, like he’s just.. he’s.. you could just see this, this anger in his face. Number one, when you are feeling that hijack, and sometimes it shows up as anger, sometimes it shows up as tears, that sometimes it shows up as fear, or are storming away, whatever that is. If we ourselves can recognize it and say this is super important, but I need a timeout, because nothing good comes from those conversations. Nothing. It will never go well. There’s there’s no fruitful outcome in my experience, and from a lot of research and other people I’ve explored this with, so if we can, if we can insert the pause, so that we can de-escalate, calm down our systems, so that we can have a reasonable conversation. Now it’s not time out and never go back again. It’s time out, and circle back 20 minutes would be the minimum. 20-four hours is better to process, to think about, and to be able to love each other, to care for each other.
Jay Whetter 53:55
Would that be a situation where you might, if you’re that angry, write it down, and like, just going back to that example, and just say, okay, this script, I was so mad, this may be so mad, and I risked, I needed to take a timeout. This is what I wanted to say, and I’m going to write it down, because I can only, I can, this is the only way I can deliver it in a calm way.
Patti Durand 54:14
I just got chills, Jake. Thank you. Hang on, beautiful example, and again, it’s connecting those dots, like these, are these are simple things, which I would say people might look at and go, “What’s stupid? I already know, like you, we could just resist and say, “Oh, it’s so simple, really. How’s it going? If it’s so simple, why isn’t it happening?
Jay Whetter 54:34
How’s that working out for you? I find that line isn’t very helpful.
Toban Dyck 54:38
The patronizing.
Patti Durand 54:44
The other thing I think about for families is, are we are we listening at all? We got to turn off the screens, we got to put down the phones, we got to mute them, silence them, go into a different room, that’s. Like we are so distracted, and I mean, I’ve been guilty of it too, with, with someone’s like talking to me, and I’m on my phone, like, come on, it’s literally impossible to divide our attention that way. Our brains are capable of amazing things, but that’s not one of them. So, that’d be one thing. Um, stonewalling, I kind of refer to that as, in terms of like shutting it down and walking away, I would challenge people, stay in the discomfort and say it, say this is really uncomfortable for me, I actually don’t have a plan for the future, and it stresses me out, but you know, saying I don’t know counts which is tricky for parents who have been like in an authoritative state for a long time, and have that desire to prove they’ve got it figured out, you know. It kind of goes back to choosing the right media of a technology gremlins, like just know that you send the wrong text to the wrong person, it gets auto corrected. I once texted a client and asked him what his birth rate was. Thankfully, he has a great sense of humor, because he responded, I’ve only been born once, but I’ll let you know if it happens again.
Jay Whetter 56:17
That could have gone sideways. Yeah, yeah.
Patti Durand 56:21
Well, I think it’s like that’s a little example of like we’re just trying to do this stuff so fast, and
Jay Whetter 56:29
Yeah.
Patti Durand 56:30
If you are writing a text and you find yourself having to rewrite it a few times, that should be a flag that this is probably an in-person conversation that you might need a script for.
Jay Whetter 56:40
So, Patti, when you agreed to come on this podcast, and we’re so happy to have you, and we, I mean, you’ve lived this now for a lot of years and could talk forever, but was there something you really wanted to get across?
Patti Durand 56:55
I really, I think that we hit the nail on the head, and I think about these things often that number one, these are smart, intelligent, caring people who’ve never done this before, and so helping them to navigate that, that then translates to the responsibility of us as extensionists and the mindset and language we’re choosing to use that may be making something that is already difficult worse, if we can take ownership of that and think more deeply about what that could look like. I know that these people, they got this, and I will be their biggest cheerleader every time.
Toban Dyck 57:41
Awesome.
Jay Whetter 57:42
Thank you.
Toban Dyck 57:42
Awesome.
Jay Whetter 57:43
Have you ever were used the word extensionists before that moment?
Toban Dyck 57:47
Oh, I have another question. Sorry,
Patti Durand 57:49
As a result of this of your podcast, certainly. And having attended, attended the Cary conference in Guelph in October, like I personally wasn’t sure if I was, should be in that room, like I was thinking about, like, am I actually the extension this, because in my mind extension is, you know, the free services, but I think, as you and I have talked about, all of these roles have a level of educator attached to them, and are we acknowledging that? Are we acknowledging that we have an opportunity to shine a light and provide clarity of understanding and increase the competency and therefore increase the decision making muscle for all of the individuals in the industry, it can be a game changer, and are we actually putting our arms around it and owning that responsibility?
Toban Dyck 58:40
So, on a much more serious note, what role does alcohol play in family business communications?
Patti Durand 58:49
Oh my gosh, it’s one of the factors, right?
Toban Dyck 58:52
Sure.
Patti Durand 58:52
So things that are self-soothing, right? So, whether that’s some level of addiction from a substance abuse or a temper and blow ups.
Toban Dyck 59:02
Yeah.
Patti Durand 59:02
Like, gosh, people are like, people just tell me, like, “Oh, that’s just how I am. Did you know you have control over that?
Toban Dyck 59:08
Yeah.
Patti Durand 59:08
Did you know that it’s actually an active choice, and they tend to be repeating what they’ve been exposed to and what they know, and the soothing also can go to the screen time, right? Doom scrolling can be super soothing, and that’s okay, but everything in moderation. I had one line that was from a workshop I did years ago, which I, which kind of struck a chord with me, is that in a family meeting, no boos and no booze, and so booze, B-O-O-S, like others’ ideas, yeah, and be who’s B-O-O-Z-E, you know, alcohol is probably not going to serve us particularly well, and it may impair judgment or remove inhibitions, and so there’s going to be some, some vulnerabilities there in what is already complex.
Toban Dyck 59:57
I know we gotta, we gotta wrap up right away, but. I do like, I do like the analogy, and you said it. I wrote down Pain Cave. I don’t think he said Pain Cave, but we’ve been watching lots of, like, like running marathoners and ultra-marathoners. Jay’s heard this. You talk about this, but, but the phrase Pain Cave is like, you embrace it, right? Like, you get to that point where you just hurt, like you’re on, like, mile, whatever it is, and everything just hurts. And there’s the discussion, the narrative is how to kind of work with it, how to kind of, like, you embrace it, you welcome it, you, you know, you and I, you said something that made me think of it in these conversations, because they’re often very uncomfortable, right? You often kind of get to that point, and to not run away from it, not to shy away from the discomfort, but find ways to, to engage with it, to embrace it, to recognize it, and work through it. I think that’s important.
Patti Durand 1:00:56
Absolutely. I would also say often this is really fun, this is entertaining, this is visionary, this is curious, and like, you learn things about your family that you never like. The people in the room, that the number of times I’m sitting across from someone, and they’re like, I didn’t know that, they’ll comment about it to their sibling or their parent or whatever, like that’s the goal.
Toban Dyck 1:01:14
See it as opportunity, almost.
Patti Durand 1:01:16
Yeah, yes, and like, how lucky are we, and to fail to put our arms around it, and even when it’s going to be difficult, I have never seen this industry shy away from difficult things. Why would they shy away from this? This is,
Jay Whetter 1:01:32
Yeah.
Patti Durand 1:01:32
This is right for the picking.
Jay Whetter 1:01:34
Patti, thank you so much. Yeah,
Patti Durand 1:01:36
My pleasure. Truly,
Jay Whetter 1:01:38
Hopefully we see each other again soon. Bye.
Jay Whetter 1:01:44
Once again, thank you to our episode sponsor, Manitoba Pulsen Soybean Growers, who are urging you to prepare for the upcoming growing season by checking out their latest fact sheets for growing field pea, dry bean, soybean, and even new crop introductions, such as faba bean and lupine.
Toban Dyck 1:02:01
These fact sheets provide important information for managing weeds, insects, and diseases in all annual legume crops. Visit manitobapulse.ca to find them.
Jay Whetter 1:02:15
Well, Toban, that was a lot of fun. We didn’t even get really to talk about her book very much, but Patti.
Toban Dyck 1:02:20
I could have hijacked that whole conversation.
Jay Whetter 1:02:22
Yeah, because it’s, I mean, in, I like hearing about your personal experiences in that regard, because I think
Toban Dyck 1:02:30
so. It’s so insincere oh yeah, I really like hearing about all your personal stuff. Thanks.
Jay Whetter 1:02:37
Well, I do, because it’s important to ground all of this in reality, and when, because I can’t really mean I’m part of a farm family by extensionists, extension, but I’m not actively involved, but you are. Yeah, okay. So, Patti’s got a book called The Future Leader, and I was, I’m helping out with one of these classes at the University of Manitoba, and they were talking about giving this book or encouraging all of their students at the University of Manitoba School of Agriculture to buy The Future Leader, and Patti is just saying at the end of our conversation, which maybe won’t make the final cut for the podcast, but that it’s incorporated into four of the classes they have there.
Toban Dyck 1:03:21
Have you read it?
Jay Whetter 1:03:22
I’m reading it like I have a bookmark about half-way mark.
Toban Dyck 1:03:25
There you go – some proof. I like that. I like that.
Jay Whetter 1:03:27
And so she, she writes it based on conversations between two people, Jordan and Kelly. And so they kind of work through all of these scenarios, sort of chapter by chapter, and it’s Jordan saying, oh, I’ve got to do this, and Kelly giving advice on on what to think about, so it’s very well structured, and it’s easy to absorb the message. So,
Toban Dyck 1:03:51
Have you, have you heard from students? Are they, are they like
Jay Whetter 1:03:54
On this?
Toban Dyck 1:03:54
Yeah.
Jay Whetter 1:03:55
No, I haven’t. No, because I just heard about this, like, after the class was done. Oh, yeah, it was at the end of the season wrap-up meeting for the for the instructors and this came up then so would have been nice to have talked about that with the students while they’re in the middle of it but no came too late to do that next year
Toban Dyck 1:04:11
But like what a treasure trove of information though like having for her having engaged with over 400 families like what kind of information you would have, right? You’d have, you’d have a lot of insight.
Jay Whetter 1:04:26
Yeah, yeah,
Toban Dyck 1:04:28
You know, I mean, it’s just, you know, I think about, yeah, yeah, it is. It is, it’s a fascinating one, and it’s, it’s, it’s complicated.
Jay Whetter 1:04:36
Yeah.
Toban Dyck 1:04:37
She’s in the throes of it.
Jay Whetter 1:04:38
I can see people being annoyed when I asked, why is it? It seems so easy. Why don’t people do it? But I just like, I mean,
Jay Whetter 1:04:44
I’m glad you asked it.
Jay Whetter 1:04:45
Starting, like, let’s get this started. And I’m not saying the process is easy, but, but so many farm families, or any business family, struggles to start that conversation. I think Pat, one of Patti’s closing points was, start it early.
Toban Dyck 1:04:59
mm. Hmm,
Jay Whetter 1:05:00
So, maybe like as soon as these 19 – 20 year olds are coming out of university, 22 year olds and going to the farm, let’s, let’s have that conversation.
Toban Dyck 1:05:08
Yeah.
Jay Whetter 1:05:08
That year.
Toban Dyck 1:05:09
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I know, I’m very glad you asked the question, I would poke fun at you for asking it, but, but, but it was one of the, it was a great starting point for, for talking about how important it is, and, and how, how complicated it is for some, for some families, you know? I mean, lots of, lots of farm operations don’t, don’t last through that, through those conversations, like they, they fizzle out, and, like, I have a friend who, who tried.
Jay Whetter 1:05:42
Yeah.
Toban Dyck 1:05:42
Couldn’t do it. The family, they even brought in outside help.
Jay Whetter 1:05:47
Yeah.
Toban Dyck 1:05:47
And it just didn’t work.
Jay Whetter 1:05:49
I remember one farmer told me recently that, and it seemed like a decent operation, that they’re headed towards disaster, because for that exact reason they couldn’t talk about the succession plan. The business itself was running along fine, but there’s a, there’s a tension within the family. Yeah, and I’m, and that’s not, that’s not necessarily unique, but yeah, this communication, I mean, we’re in the thick of it.
Toban Dyck 1:06:14
Sure.
Jay Whetter 1:06:15
It is so important, yeah. I mean, not, not, that’s,
Toban Dyck 1:06:19
I know what, anyway.
Toban Dyck 1:06:25
Yes, it is my concluding point. Communication is important.
Toban Dyck 1:06:30
No, but I liked.. I really, you’re again, I’m making fun of you for a good point, but I really liked how she said what she said about advisors and how they talk about transition planning, succession planning, and like how that might influence.. oh yeah, if you’re always just joking about how stressful it is, or the tax implications, or are these kinds of things, like you might be embedding anxieties in someone that weren’t there before, or fueling ones that were only small. Yeah, right.
Jay Whetter 1:07:06
But, what was that success is what’s that line? Oh no, but anyway, my point is that the process could actually be fun and really encouraging, and sort of shines a light on the future that might get everyone really excited,
Toban Dyck 1:07:22
Yeah.
Jay Whetter 1:07:23
And so it’s one of these conversations that, yeah, maybe you’re reluctant to have them, but once you’re having them, you’re thinking, yes.
Toban Dyck 1:07:29
Yeah.
Jay Whetter 1:07:29
Finally, yeah, we’re gonna, we’re building towards something here.
Toban Dyck 1:07:33
I do like that. It was like two ways of looking at it, right? So you have the one way, which is can be daunting, can be like, oh, but the other way is, yeah, it’s opportunity, it’s, it’s, it’s potential, it’s this kind of frontier, like, like, like perspective. It was, was it the success leaves clues quote, was that, was that your success
Jay Whetter 1:07:53
Success leaves clues.
Toban Dyck 1:07:54
Yeah, yeah,
Jay Whetter 1:07:54
Yeah.
Toban Dyck 1:07:57
Anyways, that was great. Patti, wonderful, wonderful guests.
Jay Whetter 1:08:02
This has been The Extensionists Podcast. I’m Jay Whetter,
Toban Dyck 1:08:06
And I’m Toban Dyck.
Jay Whetter 1:08:07
Till next time. This has been a Burr Forest Group production.
Toban Dyck 1:08:13
Jay, did you know that the podcast couldn’t happen with the hard work of the people behind the scenes?
Toban Dyck 1:08:18And I’ve got their names right here. They are Abby Wall, producer and editor, Ashley Robinson, researcher, and Michelle McMullen, marketer.